Shop is complete...time to start pumping!!!

[killerb1971]

Speaking of budgeting, since our livlihood is dependant on builders spending descretionary income, to what extent do the projections of the economy effect your spending/building plans for the future?

 

Regards, Chrissi & Randi

The economy does not effect my drive to build. As others have said...If i need more money, I will go make it. I do alot of mechanic side work, fixing vehicles, building engines etc. It makes the money when I need it. The Cozy Girrrls will be my source of all pre fab parts as they are needed. You can count on that. You have built a great reputation among the canard community, and even came recomended by my friend and fellow EAA member Gene Knapp. Everyone raves at the quality of your work. That is becoming a rare thing in this country. Keep up the great work. I will be seeing you when the time comes. I also thank you for your advice.

[killerb1971]

OMG!! At $636 the bulkhead chapter has Skyrocketed!!

 

I just received some MGS and hardener a couple weeks ago, from Aircraft Spruce. 1 gallon resin, 3 qt hardener... shipping only cost $14. (Using 335, 2 qts slow, 1 qt fast).

I was quoted $175 for truck freight shipping by Wicks. They said no gound carrier (Fed Ex, UPS, DHL, etc) was allowed to carry the 285 slow hardener due to the Haz Mat laws from the DOT. They can ship the resin with no problem. I never bothered to check with AC Spruce to get a quote because I figured it should be the same. I wonder why they said that. There is a possibility that the "law" only applies to the 285 hardener. You are using the 335. I will call them to verify and post back. As for the prices. Check out the prices on the web sites between AC Spruce and Wicks. There is a HUGE jump in price! Wicks is an average of $100 more per kit for the same material!!!! I think chapter 4 was $640 at Wicks and $520 at AC Spruce. I think I will be using strictly Spruce from now on. They are only a couple hours drive away, and most items are shipped in the next day on ups ground.

[killerb1971]

OMG!! At $636 the bulkhead chapter has Skyrocketed!!

 

I just received some MGS and hardener a couple weeks ago, from Aircraft Spruce. 1 gallon resin, 3 qt hardener... shipping only cost $14. (Using 335, 2 qts slow, 1 qt fast).

Well.....Its official. I just got off the phone with AC Spruce customer service and they said the DOT law is enforced on the MGS 287 slow hardener. There is a $45 charge for special hazardous material packaging PER QUART!!!! Then there is shipping on top of that. I think I will just pick it up myself. I can even fill up my Dodge truck, drive over there, pay the sales tax, eat lunch, and still come out cheaper. That's SAD!! Its a quart of hardener and they are treating it as if it were PLUTONIUM!!!!

[Edge 513]

Thats why a lot of guys are using other resin systems... Theres at least 3 nice resin/epoxies out there. Aeropoxy , The old Ezpoxy, Proset, MGs335...The sun doesn't rise and set on MGS285. Why don't you head in another direcrion? About a billion Canards been built with EZpoxy. Scaled is using Proset now. Just to consider.

[killerb1971]

Thats why a lot of guys are using other resin systems... Theres at least 3 nice resin/epoxies out there. Aeropoxy , The old Ezpoxy, Proset, MGs335...The sun doesn't rise and set on MGS285. Why don't you head in another direcrion? About a billion Canards been built with EZpoxy. Scaled is using Proset now. Just to consider.

I already have a gallon of 285 resin and I would NEVER mix 2 systems on a plane. It would be a shame to loose that money. AC spruce isn't that far to drive to to get it over the counter if I need more. Its about 2.5 hrs or so from me. I drive a 3cyl geo metro, so the gas wont hurt too bad. I think I will just deal with the small inconvenience.

[killerb1971]

Thats why a lot of guys are using other resin systems... Theres at least 3 nice resin/epoxies out there. Aeropoxy , The old Ezpoxy, Proset, MGs335...The sun doesn't rise and set on MGS285. Why don't you head in another direcrion? About a billion Canards been built with EZpoxy. Scaled is using Proset now. Just to consider.

I already have a gallon of 285 resin and I would NEVER mix 2 systems on a plane. It would be a shame to loose that money. AC spruce isn't that far to drive to to get it over the counter if I need more. Its about 2.5 hrs or so from me. I drive a 3cyl geo metro, so the gas wont hurt too bad. I think I will just deal with the small inconvenience.

[macleodm3]

I already have a gallon of 285 resin and I would NEVER mix 2 systems on a plane.

I think you may have the wrong idea hear. You don't want to mix 2 systems in a single layup. Its probably a good idea to build a single part from a single epoxy. BUT, using different epoxies in the plane is widely acccepted.

 

Consider this... three years from now you've got your plane on the landing gear, the Canard is finished and mounted, controls installed. You just finished building your wings and you're excited to start building the winglets. You call Aircraft Spruce to set up your next pick-up of 285, and the lady on the other end says "MGS stopped producing 285". Are you gonna quit? No, you switch to another approved epoxy, just as many before you have done.

 

I use 335, and I love it! 285 may be better, and I may like Pro-set even more if I tried it. For now I use 335, and I'll switch if I need to.

[rickh]

I already have a gallon of 285 resin and I would NEVER mix 2 systems on a plane.

Some people don't, some people replace all four tires on their car/truck the same time too.

 

Hope you don't poo-poo me if I told you I have West and Pro-Set in the shop. Different corners of the room though, so they don't co-mingle

 

Rick

[Marc Zeitlin]

I already have a gallon of 285 resin and I would NEVER mix 2 systems on a plane.

Why?

 

I have 4 different epoxy systems in different structural layups in my aircraft. All approved systems. (or were, at the time I used them).

[Edge 513]

335 is very viscous and wets out nicely..I've been using that. I am changing to Proset after these two gallons are gone. Dennis Oelman SWEARS by EZpoxy and has built about 10 sets of wings and a couple of Cozies with it.

The key is working wwith something and finding you like it... and IT LIKES YOU. Some epoxies will not be friendly to you aromatically and physically.

I worked with another builder who used 285 and it wet out about like the 335 I was using..but when the goofy haz mat shipping entered the picture..he switched to Proset and that is very similar. Very sweet stuff.

He incidentally has no reaction to Proset, whereas he always itched and rashed up just from the MGGS285 product in the air.

[argoldman]

335 is very viscous and wets out nicely..I've been using that. I am changing to Proset after these two gallons are gone. Dennis Oelman SWEARS by EZpoxy and has built about 10 sets of wings and a couple of Cozies with it.

The key is working wwith something and finding you like it... and IT LIKES YOU. Some epoxies will not be friendly to you aromatically and physically.

I worked with another builder who used 285 and it wet out about like the 335 I was using..but when the goofy haz mat shipping entered the picture..he switched to Proset and that is very similar. Very sweet stuff.

He incidentally has no reaction to Proset, whereas he always itched and rashed up just from the MGGS285 product in the air.

 

I, too, switched from 285 to Proset when 285 was not available. Proset actually wets out better than 285. The downside is that 285 takes much longer to polymerize than does 285 (50/50 slow/hard mix) at similar temperatures . When 285 became available again, I switched back (a friend picked up a couple of gals from wicks-- no shipping charges). I like 285 much more than proset, however that is an individual thing.

[killerb1971]

I think you may have the wrong idea hear. You don't want to mix 2 systems in a single layup. Its probably a good idea to build a single part from a single epoxy. BUT, using different epoxies in the plane is widely acccepted.

 

Consider this... three years from now you've got your plane on the landing gear, the Canard is finished and mounted, controls installed. You just finished building your wings and you're excited to start building the winglets. You call Aircraft Spruce to set up your next pick-up of 285, and the lady on the other end says "MGS stopped producing 285". Are you gonna quit? No, you switch to another approved epoxy, just as many before you have done.

 

I use 335, and I love it! 285 may be better, and I may like Pro-set even more if I tried it. For now I use 335, and I'll switch if I need to.

I was not aware of that. I remember from researching fabric covering a while back (i know thats comparing apples to oranges) that you should never mix two systems. I guess I just assumed that building structural parts of an airplane that there could be chemical bond incompatabilities when joining pieces from different layups using different systems. I should have done more research. This is why I am a "new guy". I'm still learning. I'll check into the other systems and make up my mind this week what I will do. I appreciate everyones help and advice. Its ALWAYS welcome!!

[longezdave]

If you have fully cured glass and then use another epoxy system over it, that is not a chemical bond. It is a mechanical bond and that is why there is no problem switching to a different epoxy system. You just don't want to mix different epoxy systems before they are cured.

[Big Steve]

Rob:

 

After the epoxy cures you can put any epoxy you want over it. If that bothers you When you get done with one chapter or part make the next out of another epoxy. I am using ez 84 it is around $60 a gallon if you buy it in the 71/2 gallon kits. There are ways around that over priced German stuff. STeve

[killerb1971]

What are the average shelf lives of hardeners and resins? Aproximately how much should I need on hand for chapters 4 thru 7....ball park? I appreciate everyone clearing up my misunderstanding. Now that I know that I am not married to MGS epoxy, it makes me feel better. I think I will use the gal of MGS 285 that I have, then give another system a try. There are alot of people raving about several different systems. Is it pretty much a "try it and see how you like it" type thing? Is it normal for people to experiment with several systems while building their plane, just to see if they like another one better? Just curious.

[Big Steve]

According to the epoxy genious on Marcs site it has an unlimited shelf life. I do know that the hardners will crystalize after a while. If I remember right it takes about 2 gallons to do chapter 4-7 I am going off memory which gets invitations from AARP to join so I might be wrong. STeve

[killerb1971]

According to the epoxy genious on Marcs site it has an unlimited shelf life. I do know that the hardners will crystalize after a while. If I remember right it takes about 2 gallons to do chapter 4-7 I am going off memory which gets invitations from AARP to join so I might be wrong. STeve

That is what I planned on starting out with, 2 gallons. I have another question about switching epoxy systems. What is the proceedure for introducing the different resin and hardener to the epoxy pump? Do I have to dismantle the whole pump and clean it completely, or is it safe to add the new material to the remainder of residual hardener and resin from the old system? Thanks for the help.

[macleodm3]

I think it will take five gallons to get through chapter 7. You should not mix different, uncured, epoxies. That means clean out the pump, vinegar works well for the squeegee and electric scissors. The crazy MEK I used to clean with is awful. It actually ruined my first squeegee.... it damaged the rubber, kind of glazed it over and then a bunch of cracks formed on the squeegee. The vinegar cleans everything, and then I can use the leftovers to pickle things.

[Edge 513]

You could just buy a 36.00 Peloz [staples/Office Max] postal scale. It has a tare /zero out function and does grams...

1. Put the plastic cup on the scale. 11 grams. Zero out.

2. Unscrew the resin and pour in 138 grams.

3. Muliplier enter .40 x 138 grams [for mgs335-that I am using presently] on small calculator.

4. Pour in 55.2 grams of hardener...some fast and some slow depending on the work time you need.

5. Done.

I found the pump a big hassle. So the convenience of the scale during the majority of the construction persuaded me to sell my scale to another builder. Every scaled cup is easy and accurate. I haven't missed the pump and its idiosyncrasies and I always wondered if it was accurate.

[argoldman]

You could just buy a 36.00 Peloz [staples/Office Max] postal scale. It has a tare /zero out function and does grams...

1. Put the plastic cup on the scale. 11 grams. Zero out.

2. Unscrew the resin and pour in 138 grams.

3. Muliplier enter .40 x 138 grams [for mgs335-that I am using presently] on small calculator.

4. Pour in 55.2 grams of hardener...some fast and some slow depending on the work time you need.

5. Done.

I found the pump a big hassle. So the convenience of the scale during the majority of the construction persuaded me to sell my scale to another builder. Every scaled cup is easy and accurate. I haven't missed the pump and its idiosyncrasies and I always wondered if it was accurate.

 

Some say eeether some say iiither... lets not call the whole thing off

[TMann]

If your epoxy shelf life becomes a concern ........ you're not working on a plane.

I can't keep the stuff on hand long enough to be concerned about shelf life.

[Big Steve]

I think the scale is allright for small layups but for the 6-8 hour layups like spar caps and shear webs I think using a scale would add at leat another hour or two.

Edge we need to have a race glassing something you use a scale and I will use my handy dandy 20 year old pump. We will see which on is the fastest. I am betting my bannana peels on the pump. STeve

[rickh]

... have a race glassing something ...

OK, start with a small part (quick cure desired) then progress to a large part (slow cure desired). Have the starter decide which one is first?

 

Rick

[Edge 513]

I agree Steve. But for many years a guy is not building the parts you are describing..so a 39 buck Peloz scale works fine...and save you 200 bucks=]

[killerb1971]

I recalibrated my pump for the 100:40 ratio for the 285 resin and 287 slow hardener. The 2nd practice layup is complete and curing. The practice kit I purchased from Wicks didn't come with any 1/2" foam which was required for the layup, so I used the 1" thick x 12" square block that it did come with. It was 12" long instead of the 14" per instructions and was 1" thick instead of 1/2". For all intensive purposes it will work for what the practice project is intended to teach. It seemed to go well. I will begin the last practice project (picture frame) tomorrow. I anticipate starting chapter 4 the first week of Feb.

 

I took inventory of all parts in the chapter 4 and 5 kits, went down the bill of materials in the plans, and checked off everything as I went. Everything is accounted for and is in perfect condition. This is a good start.