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Additional epoxy to fill the weave = more weight, I couldn't tell you how much over the entire plane as it would vary, but it's still more weight.

Well, I disagree. I went and read all of the stuff that the above links referenced. It seems to me that if you do a normal layup then using peel ply will make the part lighter and more uniform.

 

Do a good job of removing the excess epoxy using your squeegee as Mike Melville demonstrates in the Rutan video. For multiple layers, lay the next layer of cloth on, then squeegee and stiple to pull the epoxy UP before adding additional epoxy. Repeat for each layer. Then lay on your peel ply, using a squeegee and/or roller, adding epoxy only to those areas that are obviously dry. The peel ply actually sucks up excess epoxy. I am convinced that peel plying everything makes a nicer part and is not adding excess weight.

 

I'm also convinced that sanding parts that are not peel ply'd will always remove at least SOME fiberglass before you can get ALL of the shininess removed.

 

I buy my peel ply form Wick's - I don't know how wide it is (60"?), but it is not expensive. I also use the rolls of peel ply tape simply because I bought it when I made my first order - and it is more convenient to use in certain areas, such as taping the heat duct to the floor. :)

 

Vacuum bagging is really expensive and time-consuming. Not for me.

Phil Kriley

Cozy #1460

Chapter 13 - nose

Right wing done - working on right winglet.

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VB is not expensive or time consuming. It has not slowed my project at all. What slows your project up is not working on it.

 

I'm still trying to figure how peel ply would add weight even in a normal (non-vb) layup. If you think about it, you put the peel ply on last after you have done all of your other processes. How would smoothing on a piece of peel-ply onto a fabricated surface increase the amount of epoxy used unless you add epoxy after you apply the peel-ply?:confused:

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Well, I disagree. I went and read all of the stuff that the above links referenced. It seems to me that if you do a normal layup then using peel ply will make the part lighter and more uniform.

I will agree, as most would, that the parts are more uniform, but not that the peel ply WILL make the part lighter. I've used MGS and Ezpoxy so far and while the EZpozy was more difficult to squeegee out before each layer and the peel ply did soak up ALOT that I thought I had removed, the MGS was the opposite. See Below

 

Do a good job of removing the excess epoxy using your squeegee as Mike Melville demonstrates in the Rutan video. For multiple layers, lay the next layer of cloth on, then squeegee and stiple to pull the epoxy UP before adding additional epoxy. Repeat for each layer. Then lay on your peel ply, using a squeegee and/or roller, adding epoxy only to those areas that are obviously dry. The peel ply actually sucks up excess epoxy. I am convinced that peel plying everything makes a nicer part and is not adding excess weight.

......As far as using MGS, For me, it is much easier to remove the excess epoxy PRIOR to each layer of glass, each additional layer will pull very little, almost none of the epoxy from the previous layer so it requires the same amount of epoxy to wet out each layer. So for me, the peel ply has to be treated as another layer of glass and applied in the same fashion. If I were to leave excess epoxy in hopes that the peel ply would soak it up, I WOULD have heavier parts OR I would have dry parts if I didn't do as I do. So, to say that peel ply doesn't add some weight in order to fill the weave and make that nicer part COULD BE dependant on methods and your choice of epoxy, so don't go convincing yourself that peel ply is some magic material that makes parts lighter just yet.

 

I'm also convinced that sanding parts that are not peel ply'd will always remove at least SOME fiberglass before you can get ALL of the shininess removed.

 

That you can go ahead and convince yourself of and I agree, I peel ply eveything so I'm not trying disagree about its use, but it CAN add weight that I'm willing to live with.

 

OH, use the thinnest peel ply you can get away with too.

Regards,

Jason T Heath

MarkIV #1418

heathjasont@yahoo.com

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Because of the nature of the fabric used in peel ply, it does not soak up any epoxy but it will allow it to pass through.

I use the plans method of stippling to draw the epoxy up from the previous layers/plies to remove any excess epoxy. Sometimes on big layups (such as the exterior of the fuse) you can run into trouble getting your peel ply to adhere so reach for the heat gun in those cases.

 

I'm vacuum bagging almost all of my parts so it's pretty much a non issue for me. As far as control surfaces (elevators, ailerons & rudders) they are all CF in my build.

 

Too bad the Berkut videos are not still available. If you can get access to a set, I would strongly recommend watching them. It answers a lot of question when you see the master at work. :D

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Because of the nature of the fabric used in peel ply, it does not soak up any epoxy but it will allow it to pass through.

I understand the difference, but with all due respect, allowing the excess to pass through has the same effect as "soaking it up". When I lay on the peel ply, it gets wet from the epoxy on the layup, so it is definitely removing excess epoxy. When I remove the peel ply after cure, it is stiff from the epoxy it removed - not just from the epoxy I may have added on a dry spot. :)

Phil Kriley

Cozy #1460

Chapter 13 - nose

Right wing done - working on right winglet.

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Fellas, fellas, fellas....(girrrls too). I all boils down to technique:

 

(1) I can squeegee the daylights out of a layup and make it so dry that I need to add epoxy to the peel ply just to wet out the peel ply. In this technique, I am refilling the weave in the cloth. I am adding weight.

 

(2) I can squeegee a layup to within inches of its life, leaving in just enough excess epoxy, enough to wet out the peel ply. I am still leaving in weight because I've filled the weave.

 

(3) I can not squeegee the layup at all, put on a layer of peel ply, then squeegee the daylights out of the layup. What I'm doing there is squeegeeing the expoy out from underneath the peel ply. Yeah sure, the peel ply wets out. But most of the excess epoxy is being squeegeed out and being removed off the edges of the piece being glassed.

 

(4) I can also do #2 and #3 with plastic (poor man's vac bag).

 

(5) And I can do the authentic vac bagging.

 

If you do a good job at ANY of these techniques, you will end up with a light part. We could solve this whole argument. Just redo the Chapter 3 flat panel postage scale exercise. Cavaet -- must have peel plied finish. Then weigh and compare results.

Wayne Hicks

Cozy IV Plans #678

http://www.ez.org/pages/waynehicks

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That is why I said peel ply is a bit heavier in my opinion. When I did my elevators. On the left elevator I peel plied the whole thing and on the right side I only did the trailing edge and the over lap on the leading edge. Guess which one was heavier and I squeegee the piss out of both of them. Yep the one with peel ply all over. That is why I say peel ply is heavier I personally think that when you pull the peel ply the smooth pattern that is left is full of epoxy from the top peel ply layer and that is what adds the weight. Something is covering up the weave and making that very nice even surface??? My .o2 STeve

Steve Harmon

Lovin Life in Idaho

Cozy IV Plans #1466 N232CZ

http://websites.expercraft.com/bigsteve/

Working on Chapter 19,21

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good show Drew! Right now you are ahead of many people who have been "building" for a year or more...or holding onto some plans and thinking about building for....

Now that you have a head of steam..it will be hard to slow you down.

Self confessed Wingnut.

Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.?

Get up off that couch!!! =)

 

Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.

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Not bad, but I see a brush hair on your IP...:D Lookin' good! Keep up the good work! :cool2:

There's probably more than one, but there must be at least half a dozen of those Australian flying ants.

 

Looks good Drew. How much for the lot? :)

Supplies from ASS: $2000

MGS 285 from local surfboard shop: $1300

Airfreight to Australia: $700

Customs, Taxes, Clearing: $686

Cost of completing the first chapter: PRICELESS

 

Sorry Jon, NOT FOR SALE. Build your own plane! :)

 

Right now you are ahead of many people who have been "building" for a year or more...or holding onto some plans and thinking about building for....

Now that you have a head of steam..it will be hard to slow you down.

It does feel pretty good. Ch4 was completed in 1 month 1 day. (Minus Perm IP) Steady progress, I've been working about 2-3 hours about 5-6 days a week. A very comfortable pace.

 

But to look at the bigger picture, I've owned the plans for nearly 4 1/2 years. So I guess I only completed one chapter in just over four years. At that rate it may fly someday before I retire.

 

I've showed the project to the non-aviation type, I can tell they have some reservation about someone actually building a plane. When I tell them that it probably going to take at least 3,000 hours to build, the eyebrow raises even more. I just tell them it's really no different than those crazy old men that are building a boat in the basement. The reason they're old and crazy it that they started building when they were young! :P Gets a laugh every time

Drew Chaplin (aka the Foam Whisperer)

---

www.Cozy1200.com - I'm a builder now! :cool:

---

Brace for impact...

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We could solve this whole argument. Just redo the Chapter 3 flat panel postage scale exercise. Cavaet -- must have peel plied finish. Then weigh and compare results.

I did just this before I started, the 6 ply panel, slightly larger than the test panel requirement so I could chuck my edges. I'm not sure if this was a vac bag or hand layup, but I'm fairly sure it was hand layup. I layup up a single piece so that I wouldn't have as much variability as doing two separate ones. I put peel ply across half of the part, and after cure, cut it in half along that line. I put the two pieces together and table saw'd them to matching side, removing the edges.

 

I then weighed each on my gram scale. Exactly the same result. Wish I'd had a scale that went to 0.1g, but I don't, still, any difference is pretty negligible from what I could tell.

 

For what it's worth, I don't thing peel ply changes weight much either way. I peel ply everything.

Craig K.

Cozy IV #1457

building chapter seven!

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/index.html

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  • 1 month later...

The first project I saw the builder had trashed his seatback and was considering those very options when I visited. Don't know what he did, but he had already dismissed the notion of local supply as while he could get the foam, he could only get a whole sheet which cost MUCH more than the amount he needed from ASS. If you find a local supply that isn't too much more than twice the price I'll take a bit. You could always patch what you have and blame it on the neighbor's bunyip...

 

In the light of these two examples downunder I think I'll start on something OTHER than the seatback though.

That someone was me!! I did trash the seatback, and ordered more foam with my next order to Wicks.

 

In retrospect, the seatback probably was OK (its a few years ago now) I believe that the micro layer had bled throught the layup, and I mistakenly thought I had a problem.

If I had someone who had experience to come and inspect I could have found this out before I trashed it.... Live and learn - you guys in the US dont realise how lucky you are!

 

As for local supplier, Chris Byrne and I have both spent a huge amount of time trying to source local supply. In the end it is more cost effective to just buy most supplies from the US - and saves a crap load of time too.

 

The only things I source locally are MGS285, and the styrofoam for the flying surfaces. Everything else is from the US (although I can readily get the odd AN bolt from work :) )

Andrew Winkworth

Cozy MKIV #937

Brisbane Australia

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