Velocity Steering

[DemonFrog]

How does nosewheel steering make it likely you will tip? isn't it the forces of the turn? if you take a turn too fast you will tip no matter how you steer. mabye i'm missing something (experience?)

[Waiter]

How does nosewheel steering make it likely you will tip?

If the main gear are close together, like in a LongEZ, then the answer is yes.

 

But, like I say, its impossible to tip if you use differential braking.

 

Picture this:

 

You just landed and you want to make the first turn off, so you stand on the left brake to make a left turn.

 

As the plane starts to turn to the left, it also starts tipping to the right. The more it tips to the right, the less weight the left tire has on the ground, and the less braking effect the left tire will have. (hence the ability to turn the plane)

 

At some point, the left tire will start skidding or may even lift off the ground slightly. When the left lifts off the ground, the plane will stop turning left.

 

 

 

Waiter

[Lynn Erickson]

If the main gear are close together, like in a LongEZ, then the answer is yes.

 

But, like I say, its impossible to tip if you use differential braking.

 

Picture this:

 

You just landed and you want to make the first turn off, so you stand on the left brake to make a left turn.

 

As the plane starts to turn to the left, it also starts tipping to the right. The more it tips to the right, the less weight the left tire has on the ground, and the less braking effect the left tire will have. (hence the ability to turn the plane)

 

At some point, the left tire will start skidding or may even lift off the ground slightly. When the left lifts off the ground, the plane will stop turning left.

 

 

 

Waiter

I'd say try it and you will like it. the brake steering thing I mean. been in a spam can when the nose wheel steering was stuck at a 5 degrees left. when the plane got slowed down ,after a lot of nose wheel skidding, the right brake could overcome the left nose wheel and the wing hit the ground. save the complicated for something in the plane that needs to be complicated. brake steering works the best in an ez. with our E brake ( nose wheel handle doubles a E brake leaver ) you will stop, right now! Its three times for me, one time the Brock supplied rod end broke. stopped from 100 mph in 100 feet and 6" of glass. one time with another pilot ( his brain fade ) at 50 mph and stopped in 25 feet and 2" of glass. one time at 10 mph, the retract bronze gear broke and only the paint got scraped.

[Cozy Girrrl]

I also get the strong feeling that nose steering would highly stress the NG-30's.

With a normal castering nosewheel it follows the path of the least resistance, if the differential braking sets up forces to turn the plane then the nose gear is along for the ride.

Steering the nosewheel would mean the wheel initiates the turn with the mass of the plane wanting to continue straight, made many times worse by braking on the mains now throwing downforce in to the nose, weight, stress and more traction for the turn.. yeah I could see some fun field repairs.

Do it too hard and it starts to milkstool, the inside wheel lifts, more stress on the nosegear, the nosegear is determining the direction (at this point a castering nosewheel would be ok because the inside main would no longer be initiating the turn and it would straighten out) and weight is still shifting while the nosewheel is turned in a direction that would try to get out from under the increasing load. Unless you straightened out the steering nosewheel at this point it could get ugly quickly?

Differential braking works just fine and has the advantage of being simple, lightweight and self limiting.

Just why are we trying to fix this in the first place?

[TMann]

Pro:

A steerable nose wheel results in a shorter take-off roll because no energy is lost due to steering with the brakes.

Con:

A plane with this configuration has a much larger turning radius than the castor style nosewheel.

 

This is a major factor in my decision to forgo the nose wheel that Infinity Aerospace is working on.

 

......... and yes Marc, even though I changed my mind as to this aspect of my project, I'll still make good on our wager.

[argoldman]

You are forgetting the increased weight, complexity and maintainence requirements.

[TMann]

You are forgetting the increased weight, complexity and maintainence requirements.

........well, yeah, there is that.

I bought Dale Martin's adjustable rudder pedals and really didn't want to give them up to go the steerable nose gear route.

 

Guns and butter.

One decision eliminates a host of possibilities.

[Cozy Girrrl]

Gotta love Dales adjustable pedals.

...Chrissi

[Marc Zeitlin]

... and yes Marc, even though I changed my mind as to this aspect of my project, I'll still make good on our wager.

Refresh my memory - is this the $100/yr I bet back on 12/12/2005 ( http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9811 ), or was there some other bet? If it was this one, then I'm thinking that someone owes me $200 so far, soon to be $300 :-).

[TMann]

Refresh my memory - is this the $100/yr I bet back on 12/12/2005 ( http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9811 ), or was there some other bet? If it was this one, then I'm thinking that someone owes me $200 so far, soon to be $300 :-).

NOOOOOOO.........(but thank you for playing). This was for Hieneken (and you promised to share one) if the nose gear wasn't ready when I was.

I'm still not ready for it but I'm still good for it.

......can you make mine a Killian's instead? (you know ...... buy American!)

[Marc Zeitlin]

NOOOOOOO.........(but thank you for playing). This was for Hieneken (and you promised to share one) if the nose gear wasn't ready when I was.

I'm still not ready for it but I'm still good for it.

......can you make mine a Killian's instead? (you know ...... buy American!)

It is inconceivable to me that I would ask for a Heineken, as I don't like them. A Guinness, maybe, but the only reference that I've made to Guinness was in a thread from last November, didn't involve you, and wasn't a bet.

 

Aha - here it is - the other forum:

 

http://forum.canardaviation.com/showthread.php?p=50035&highlight=Guinness#post50035

 

And no, I can't make it a Killians, and at the rate you're building, there's no question in my mind that I'll be winning this bet :-).

[TMann]

Guinness, yeah that's right. I knew it was something unAmerican!

[Cozy Girrrl]

Ick! Killian's Red tastes terrible! It has some foo foo raspberry winey taste to it, nasty stuff.

 

Bad enough people are trying to ruin my perfectly good rum adding Kaptain Krunch Spiced Rum to it... surprised its not the drink of choice on "To Catch a Predator" after Mikes Hard Lemonade... should be right on the rack next to Krak 4 Kidz and Herion Sippy Strawz or whatever winds up those little people these days.

 

Newcastle Brown, now there is a nice dark chewy beer with everything needed to sustain life in one convenient container. In fact it would make excellent survival rations.. probably has fiber in it?

-AILERON- so what does this have to do with Velocity steering anyway? Oh, yeah, steer away from the Killians, thank you thats good advice, uuuh..TMan

 

...Chrissi

[Steve Innova]

I bought Dale Martin's adjustable rudder pedals and really didn't want to give them up to go the steerable nose gear route.

Can you post a picture or a link to these rudder pedals. I've never heard of them before, but they might be just what I need for my aircraft.

[David Staten]

Pro:

A steerable nose wheel results in a shorter take-off roll because no energy is lost due to steering with the brakes.

 

Everyone has an opinion on this matter.. and mine is.. that in over 50 hours of flying Grumman Tigers and Cheetahs, after my initial checkout I didn't loose any takeoff performance for this reason (differential braking for steering).

 

I lined up facing a few degrees right of center.. and the initial left turning tendency would center the plane up (on initial acceleration right) about the time the rudder became effective from the slipstream.

 

And with the exception of an RV type, I have to admit that the Grumman also had great short field takeoff performance.. part flaps and climb out right at VX (stall horn blares, but the plane levitates....)

 

Nosewheel steering is a nonissue, when proper training and experience is provided. Its cheaper, less complex, and permits more nimble movement on the ramp.

 

We now return you to your normally scheduled canard issues

[TMann]

...... just going off of the research I read.

As far as is it necessary? My feeling is not and as you stated, the turning radius on a free castoring nose wheel is a very strong selling point.

 

I have a video of a guy doing figure eights in a Long-EZ equipped with Infinity retracts. It would pivot around the locked wheel and it doesn't get much better than that.

[Cozyman]

Folks,

 

This is an interesting thread for several reasons. I will post this in the taxiing thread, and Cozy vs Velocity thread.

 

First some background:

 

I owned a Cozy III for 12 years, and absolutely loved it. I put about 600 hours on it. I did not build it, I cheated and bought it. My only complaint - it was Cozy!! I am now 5'10', 200lbs. OK, 12 years ago I weighed less :-) This is a great cross country plane for two people who are smaller than me. It also has lots of space in the back for two individuals. It appears most of my friends are retired fighter pilots and not petit!! I know, I should get smaller friends :-)

 

I significantly upgraded the panel (GNS 430, Dynon D10, Dynon D10A).

 

I recently traded up my Cozy III for a Velocity 173FG. It was a unique circumstance, and I am quite happy. I currently only have about 15 hours in the Velocity.

 

My initial taxi of the Velocity was horrible. It was not like my Cozy which after 600 hours, I was very comfortable with. Granted, the Cozy at times would "catch" and want to pull left or right with only minor adjustments to keep it straight. Clearly there were problems with this aircraft. The mechanics contacted Velocity to get the technical specifications. After painstaking work, they made sure the toe in measurements, and landing gear calibration was correct. It taxied significantly better. This would have been a deal breaker if this was the normal taxiing characteristics.

 

I was thrilled with the flight characteristics during my Velocity insurance "check out," and purchased it.

 

After flying the aircraft back from Florida to Virginia (what a great cross country aircraft - did I mention how much more room there is!!), I encountered two separate events when I overheated the left brake, to the point of failure. I was not using the left brake aggressivley - thus it was a bit surprising when this happened. After a period of cooling off, no problem.

 

I also encountered a problem during a takeoff roll which was significantly increased due to the need to use the right brake to keep on the center line. (Again, I have 600 hours in the Cozy. I encountered this in the Cozy, but strong crosswinds were the usual cause). This lead me to look into this in more detail.

 

I am currently in Beijing, China and will not have physical access until I return. (This is the reason I have time to research this topic).

 

What I learned:

 

This is not a highly unusual event (taxiing issues) for the Velocity. There is a thread of this on the Velocity forum as well. (I agree with the postings, when the differential braking works, it works exceptionally well). I do "feel" there is a difference with the Velocity. The overall weight of the aircraft, and more importatnly the weight resting on the nose gear).

 

I will look into:

Ensure Nose Gear is physically installed correctly (worn washers, nut is tightened properly……….)

The new Fixed Gear Nose Replacement Bumber

Brake Pedal System

Mishler Nosewheel lock (A pin locks in place to keep the nose gear straight at appropriate times)

Steerable Nosewheel

 

I will post my findings as I work through the problem solution process. I am very lucky, there is an incredibly helpful canard community at Manassas. These guys have been my adult supervision for 13 years.

 

Safe Flying. Tim