Mazda 13B & 20B Engine Mounting Systems

[Eccentric]

How well does the plate and oil pan seal? I do not know how many of these sandwich plate designs are in operation but i was wondering if they are prone to leaking. From my old drag racing days any time a small block Chevy was opened up it was a challenge to get the pan to seal on the first try. Thanks

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

My Long-EZ has a small oil seepage leak (from being parked nose down) that started about about a year after the 2001 re-installation. My existing mount has a 1/4" aluminum plate between engine and oil pan. I just live with the leak because I don't want to remove the engine and reseal.

 

The next time I have to remove the engine for whatever reason, I plan to build a new engine mount. The new engine mount design does away with the plate - it combines the Schertz beam with the oil pan so there is one less seam to leak. There is a guy in Seattle currently installing Greg Richter's turbo engine in a Long-EZ with this engine mount design:

 

http://www.bridgingworlds.com/LEZ13B/LEZ13B.htm

 

If you want a pre-fab mount you'll have to buy Chrissi's because I'm not producing this mount design, just providing the info for do-it-yourselfers.

[Eccentric]

I have found some heatsink extrusion that has fins on both sides so I thought since the cooling air goes by there it may be worth some free cooling.

Regards, Chrissi

I've been flying for several years now with an aluminum oil pan welded up by a friend who does welding for a living. It has fins both inside and outside on the bottom surface. I was hopeful this would help with oil temperature but it made no noticable difference. Can't hurt and looks cool though.

[Cozy Girrrl]

Dear Perry,

I always have and continue to have issues with the Shertz Beam mounts as implimented on other lists. Your version of the mount looks a little better than most -if- the integrated oil pan frame is substantial, it ought to be a plate even if mostly hollowed out. The windage tray portion of the plate has less to do with oil and more to do with the overall strength of the plate.

The version that PL has been supporting is insane; hanging the engine off a few small screws on the back iron, when the gyroscopic progression forces from a hard pullup cause the engine to yaw hard all the force has to be absorbed by the two outer screws, the inner ones are just going to be there to provide a pivot point while the others sheer off cleanly, the front of the Shertz mounted engine has no proper mounting to prevent yaw, I hope people are doing something about this in their implimentation of the Shertz beams. This force is not trivial. A pine cored, glass spar with composite overlay three blade prop has a centrifical force of about 6500 pounds per blade at WOT, what is going to happen if you lose a blade or sharply rotate that big gyro?

Regards, Chrissi

[Limo EZ]

Chrissi,

 

Which small screws are you referring to? Supporing the rear of engine off of the oil pan?

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

[Eccentric]

I show eight 6-mm screws in a C pattern, that bolt into the rear iron on the engine. Considering your canard is held on with only two 1/4" bolts, this would seem sufficient, but if you can prove otherwise by analysis I'll listen.

[Cozy Girrrl]

I show eight 6-mm screws in a C pattern, that bolt into the rear iron on the engine. Considering your canard is held on with only two 1/4" bolts, this would seem sufficient, but if you can prove otherwise by analysis I'll listen.

Dear Perry,

You have what at first glance seems a valid argument except the canard does not have a 200 plus horsepower engine atached directly to it trying to twist the bolts off of it, nor does it have the opportunity to pitch off a blade and the subsequent extreemly violent reaction that would cause, even the plans go to great lengths to caution about out of balance elevators and the danger that can result. I am sure you could hang many thousand pounds from two 6mm screws yet I am sure I can break one off just as easily in shear with a few hundred pound whack with a hammer.

The thing is, counting eight 6mm screws does not mean much in the hard pullup scenario if you have not counterbraced the other end of your motor to deal with the yawing force, in yaw a couple of those screws are providing a pivot point while the rest are in shear.

We're certainly not going to put ourselves or others at risk to a handfull of screws that give you a false sense of security under ideal conditions.

When Dave Domeier lost a part of one of his three blades in his Cozy he said the vibration was so violent he could not see, he could not see his canard or his panel.

Perry, I respect your conviction that what you are doing is right for you, you have a really incredible plane.

Regards, Chrissi

[Limo EZ]

Aren't you relying on the pan bolts to hold the engine to the plate?

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

[Eccentric]

you have a really incredible plane.

Regards, Chrissi

Thanks Chrissi! I really enjoy it, an incredible design thanks to Mr Rutan.

I think welding the oil pan as an integral part of the beam would eliminate any concerns.

I initially replied to this thread after Joe asked about oil leaks around the pan, which I do experience. You could eliminate 1/2 the leakage problem by integrating your oil pan with your mount plate as well.

[Eccentric]

Aren't you relying on the pan bolts to hold the engine to the plate?

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

If you are referring to my design, the oil pan is an integral part of the plate. The plate, otherwise known as a Schertz Beam, is 1/2" thick, not because it needs to be that thick, but because the rubber bushings are designed for 1/2" thick material. As shown in the previous GIF the rearmost eight pan bolts are longer and bolt into the iron rear housing.

[Limo EZ]

Actually I was thinking of Chrissi's design in that the motor is held to the plate vi a the oil pan bolts'

 

Joe Berki

LImo EZ

[Cozy Girrrl]

Initially we were against both the Shertz Beam and the CCI mount for different reasons.

Our dislike of the bed mount was twice the opportunity for oil leaks and I agree with Perry that making the pan an integral part of the bed mount it would reduce that problem by 50%, PROVIDED that you fly cut the whole thing after welding it. Did not want to go there.

I think antiseptic attention to cleanliness on assembly plus not torquing the plate till after the sealant cures may help.

In the case of the beam mount, if you did what we did on the flywheel end of our bed mount you should be a lot better off, the material for the bed plate has the grain running athwartships, it extends to the redrive plate and is bolted to it with (4) AN-4 bolts as well as bolting upwards into the two lower redrive spacer blocks with (2) AN-4 bolts each. The rear of our bed mount is in effect a beam mount..it just has a lot of additional bracing and fastening points. You could do the same with one of our bed mounting plates, just cut the two other mounting ears off of it and call it a beam mount

We had Paul Conner's mount here for awhile. It was part of our decison to produce this mount since it had been tested in a rather extreme manner. In spite of all the John Madden diagrams predicting doom and gloom that some individual circulated, the tubular portion held up fine, as did the bed plate. Since the plane somewhat pancaked in it caused the bed mount plate to bow and the mounting ears bent up slightly. Nothing broke or tore loose other than some of the pan bolts in tension from the bowing of the two beams comprised from the bed mount.

Regards, Chrissi

[emteeoh]

Lynn- I knew the mounts were important to make sure they were included as part of an engine "deal" for that 250 dollar reason...but didn't know there were two different types of mounts.

Are the Lord mount 'dough nuts' the equalizing part here? Or are there different Lord dough nuts for the two types of 540 core mounts. What are the names for the two diff mount arrangements?

Girrrls. What are the mounts that you are building to?

Velocity mentioned absolutely NOTHING about this- all they wanted was to know if it was a parallel or angle head engine....so I am glad this surfaced. I need to have everything match obviously.

Sorry to ressurect this tangential conversation, but check out http://www.kal-soft.com/velocity/weblog.asp?pic=1207 . It looks like Andy Millin is running into this very issue with his IO-540.

[Edge 513]

Sorry to ressurect this tangential conversation, but check out http://www.kal-soft.com/velocity/weblog.asp?pic=1207 . It looks like Andy Millin is running into this very issue with his IO-540.

This is some major pain for this guy.

I want to avoid this for sure.

Chrissi, what mounts are you making your 540 motor hanger to mate with?

Gracias....

[TMann]

This is some major pain for this guy.

I want to avoid this for sure.

Chrissi, what mounts are you making your 540 motor hanger to mate with?

Gracias....

.......... use the force Dennis. Get a 13B. uuuuuuuuse the fooooooorrrrrrce!!!!

[Cozy Girrrl]

.......... use the force Dennis. Get a 13B. uuuuuuuuse the fooooooorrrrrrce!!!!

See our answer over at the new thread... its got pics too

...Chrissi

[Cozy Girrrl]

Zoom Zoom Zoom

[dirtdox]

Very cool!!!!

Looks like the rotary made it out of the living room!!!

[Cozy Girrrl]

Yes, Kitty is having depression issues, she thought it was her engine =)