Comprehensive mods list

[Big Steve]

Guy:

 

Having been involved in the canard community for over 20 years I have met a lot of interesting people. I put them in different catogories depending on personality. Some guys build and fly airplanes some guys build airplanes but they only build so they never fly. Some guys build and airplane and are so sharp they want another one with all kinds of mods and they are smart enough to do it. Then there is the guys who dont build anything just talk and talk and make all of these fancy parts for a plane that will never fly This of course before the internet. I have built and flown a longeze. I did not build the whole thing to the exact plans. IE>( long nose and brakes in the front and a couple of other minor things. Now I am building a cozy 4 I will make a few changes but pretty much stay with the plans at least for the first one. I guess what I am trying to say is that most of the really sharp builders Who fly dont say much except for Marc he is a rarity. I personally appreciate his honesty. I have flown with him and he is a by the numbers kind of guy. When he talks you aught to listen, his plane has over 500 hours and he is still alive. I think that is why a lot of the sharp builder/flyers argue over all the theoretic changes They really dont want to see the design get a bad name buy someone building a rutan derivitive with all kind of mods and crashing it and the community suffering for it. I would be real careful about modifying to much These planes bone stock fly great and are easy and fast to build. I am now open for my online beating. My $.02 STeve

[egalvan]

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/index.html

 

I'm not quite up to date, I have some I haven't posted yet, and some I still need to write. I'm glad you found it interesting.

 

Actually, I found it more than interesting, I found it EXCELLENT. Well-written, concise, clear, good reference to photos, and fairly well explained.

 

Let's have some more!

 

Please.

 

And THANK YOU! for making it a PDF, and not MicroSoft-proprietary. Not all of us do business with them.

 

ErnestG

[chasingmars]

And THANK YOU! for making it a PDF, and not MicroSoft-proprietary. Not all of us do business with them.

 

Funny you should say that. It's written in OpenOffice, exported by the build in PDF feature.

I'm visiting family this weekend, being away from home, I can't build, so I'll probably write, and get up to date again by Sunday (maybe)... thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you found it worth reading.

[chasingmars]

Alright, 20 more pages, I'm up to date now Including my Phenolic vs Glass micro experiment log.

 

Which reminds me to add to the subject list and stay on topic:

* Using Phenolic based micro instead of Glass micro.

[rsrguy3]

So, whats the outcome?-Guy

[egalvan]

It's written in OpenOffice, exported by the build in PDF feature.

I'm glad you found it worth reading.

 

I found it very worth-while reading. And being able to download it and port it to my Palm Pilot elevates it to EXCELLENT.

 

Let us know where we can find the latest posts.

 

And in case of quibbles; yes, PDF is proprietary, but its format is OPEN and known. MS Word is proprietary and its format is CLOSED.

 

Imagine building a Long-EZ if only RAF had access to the plans, and the builder was only allowed to look at pictures of the finished plane.

 

I'm considering vacuum-bagging some parts, and I've put myself on a diet. I've dropped from 198 to 180, so that means I can expect my plane to carry around some 30 pounds less. Not a bad thing, I think.

 

Then again, I can skip the bagging, and try to reach my High School weight of 165. That might be healthier.

[SteveWrightNZ]

Does this forum have a wiki section?

No, not yet. It's something I have on my list, but would need a bit more control than a free-for-all as I've seen. It's in mind and something I'll be exploring sometime in the future.

 

FWIW, we use them at work all the time (but only authorized people can contribute, not the cleaning people, etc.).

Jon, pleeeeease talk to me before you create another wiki.

 

We have purposely left http://canardaviationwiki.dmt.net/wiki/ unmoderated until it had built a useful amount of content before we secured it so the cleaner couldn't hack it. That day is quickly approaching and we will move from bulk-content adding mode into "securing it and adding certainty" mode.

 

 

S

[chasingmars]

Jon, pleeeeease talk to me before you create another wiki.

 

Yeah, we may have three forums, but perhaps we can have one wiki? That would be in all our best interests I think...

 

So, whats the outcome?-Guy

Was this regarding the phenolic micro? Positive, but the price premium isn't insignificant, and this is probably yet another improvement that doesn't need to be improved. More research needed (with gear I don't have access to anymore) to determine if there's a weight savings to be had here, my initial estimates are little bit of one at a cost of about $80/lb, with large error bars on the estimate.

 

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/Misc/Phenolic%20vs%20Glass%20K20%20micro.pdf

 

I found it very worth-while reading. And being able to download it and port it to my Palm Pilot elevates it to EXCELLENT.

Let us know where we can find the latest posts.

 

actually, the only reason I chose pdf is because I didn't like the HTML-export look, it messed up all my image placements and all and I wanted to keep it how it was laid out in my actual log.

 

Anyhow, my pages are all off my root build log page, including the updates. Thanks for the positive feedback.

[Jon Matcho]

Jon, pleeeeease talk to me before you create another wiki.

Okay!

 

We have purposely left http://canardaviationwiki.dmt.net/wiki/ unmoderated until it had built a useful amount of content before we secured it so the cleaner couldn't hack it.

In hindsight, that's probably what has caused some to wince and run away -- seeing prior references to major untested modifications thrown in by any not-yet-flying builders (or even not-yet-building dreamer). For a wiki to work at this level it needs a few "elders" to watch over it, serving as a sort of "virtual designer". The right people need to be behind it, not just everyone or anyone IMO.

 

Regardless, I think if done right it would be great.

[Cozy Girrrl]

Okay!

 

In hindsight, that's probably what has caused some to wince and run away -- seeing prior references to major untested modifications thrown in by any not-yet-flying builders (or even not-yet-building dreamer). For a wiki to work at this level it needs a few "elders" to watch over it, serving as a sort of "virtual designer". The right people need to be behind it, not just everyone or anyone IMO.

 

Regardless, I think if done right it would be great.

Jon, I do believe that was why the presence of certain "Elders" were on the now imploded forum, it was itself was a fountain of misinformation with its cavalier "do whatever thou will" (and let us know how it went) attitude.

 

I would not put anything into a Wiki that has not been flown and proven safe and beneficial.

Regards, Chrissi

[Jon Matcho]

"Elders"

Maybe I should have used 'sages' or 'wisefolk'.

 

I would not put anything into a Wiki that has not been flown and proven safe and beneficial.

Hmmm... sounds like good sense, possibly good enough for you to someday be appointed Chieftess Wiseperson.

[Cozy Girrrl]

Maybe I should have used 'sages' or 'wisefolk'.

 

Hmmm... sounds like good sense, possibly good enough for you to someday be appointed Chieftess Wiseperson.

I used to get my hackles up whenever Nat admonished someone and put them in their place by saying "..a first time builder" and later modifying that to include "...a first time builder that has never flown" it was a hurtfull and demeaning thing to say to anybody but if you remove the maliscious intent and look at the other side of the drinking glass to include all those who Nat's epiphet did not include you get an different selection set of people who have built a flying airplane and have according to a regulatory agency proven a level of piloting skills. Now these qualifications in themselves do not exclude dreamers and wanabees but it would be a fair generalization that if they had indeed built a flying canard aircraft they would have been around this community for at least four years. I am talking four years minimum of active building, not armchair advisory capacity. Its the trip from A to B during that four years that is as much an education as the learning the composite stuff, there is also a certain amount of maturation during that time.

This is why you will typically find me advising new builders to just build it to the plans, fixed gear and put an IO-360 in it. I do this not because of any liability as a vendor, its because I have learned a few things along the way.

Yet, in my own words and feelings, until our plane is safely flown it is still just a project, our expertise is in how to build our project, we cannot tell you how to build a better Cozy Mk-IV until we have suceeded in doing so ourselves. With that in mind we would suggest that you keep this in mind when talking to other builders. The Olde Guarde builders and flyers have probably seen and heard it all before and when they roll their eyes when you bring up some dream mod it may be because they know that even if it has been done sucessfully before, when you choose to stray off the edge of the plan sheet, there be dragons.

...Chrissi

[SteveWrightNZ]

re: wiki content and newbish utterings

 

I think pilots and post-builders give themselves too much credit. When it was YOUR turn to build you put in due-diligence and examined everything on its' merits, and chose your own set of mods using the process of critical thinking, or whatever process you did use, but pre-builders are not completely stupid you know - they ARE going to approach the process in the same or similar way that you did, and if they don't then maybe you can influence that process.. But casting newbs as incompetent and dangerous and not being able to think for themselves is plain wrong - just as wrong as it was when it was your turn - they like staying alive too.

 

Regarding Aviation content in a wiki, any person can digitally sign any content at any time even if they are not the author, but regardless of what tools we offer senior members of the aviation community, they still seem to regard the wiki with distaste and disgust - similar to the contempt they offer the ideas of non-builders.

 

Enough thread hijacking.. If anyone wants to offer their contribution, or a new direction, simply edit the page concerned. We can't and don't want to do it all ourselves.

 

reminder: My post starts with the words "I Think" - Opinion!

 

S

[Waiter]

But casting newbs as incompetent and dangerous and not being able to think for themselves is plain wrong

ALSO; casting newbs as competent and safe and being able to think for themselves is plain wrong, AND, possibly deadly.

 

Waiter

[SteveWrightNZ]

ALSO; casting newbs as competent and safe and being able to think for themselves is plain wrong, AND, possibly deadly.

taking my text and turning back on me is particularly irritating. Don't do that again.

 

GRR, NO ONE SAID NEWBS WERE COMPETANT. THAT IS THE WHOLE REASON THEY **GAIN** COMPETANCY BY ASKING IN PLACES LIKE THIS. THEY WILL MAKE THEIR OWN MIND UP, LIKE YOU DID.

 

Growl

[Waiter]

Sorry if you feel irritated, I was simply extending the point that you eloquently made, except I applied it to the other end of the spectrum.

 

I thought you chose your words admirably, and I felt I couldn't come up with any better, only change a couple verbs.

 

I bet we can both agree, there are idiots who don't know diddly squat and need to be lead by the hand, AND, there are idiots that think they know it all, and if you don't believe it, just ask them.

 

I believe most of the posters on this forum fall somewhere in the middle.

 

Waiter

[Jon Matcho]

Yikes, Steve, chill! Waiter was just throwing out the other point of view.

 

Your response also highlights how clueless newbies can be at times. I recall when master builder Wayne Hicks said something you didn't like at the Dust/Slade forum... then poof, with a few clicks of your mouse you locked Wayne out as a wiki contributor:

 

Blocked permanently. Good bye. Never approach me again.

That action alone taught me I wasn't going to participate. To go out of your way to play tough and not win the minds of those that could fill your wiki with valuable information only demonstrates your ignorance (for lack of a better word) to the subject matter and community members at hand.

 

Please take a moment before SHOUTING back a response for the whole world to see. I mean you no ill will nor does anyone else here. It's all about good, clean, and safe fun building airplanes. That is all. If we can improve quality and the numbers building these types, great!

[TMann]

.... there are idiots who don't know diddly squat and need to be lead by the hand, AND, there are idiots that think they know it all....

Yeah but the village called and wanted him back!

 

Tough to judge who the idiots are based on some posts on a forum ........ but there are those who will do their best.

 

Lots of hangar flying going on here.

[Jon Matcho]

"People that think they know it all are terribly annoying to those of us that do."

 

-Unknown

[SteveWrightNZ]

Yeah I will block people who are hostile towards me. I don't care. Likely they will do the same - It's a free Internet. If you are interested you should read all about mr hicks so-called religious convictions, then witness the brutal manner he turned upon me. Godly ? - I do not think so mr hicks. I respect (and use) his work, but he will not approach me in a public forum. shrug. He (and anyone else) has never been blocked from the wiki - it is not my wiki to do so, it is yours. Blocking people feels like shooting a dog - I hate it.

 

I don't want to fight. I approach everyone carefully with a civil tongue and a carefully worded paragraph, as you have seen. People who are deliberately or even inadvertantly rude will be dealt to severely. Either get used to it, or think before you speak.

 

edit: "poof, with a few clicks of your mouse you locked Wayne out as a wiki contributor" This statement is incorrect. NO PERSON HAS EVER BEEN BLOCKED FROM THE WIKI.

 

very angry.

[Cozy Girrrl]

When Newbs are put in a fertile environment where they ask "can I widen the fuselage enough to put an aisle down the middle so I can get up and go back to the toilet" and a newb moderator shouts down any dissenting opinions, you might have a problem.

But you missed my point, yes, you are free to make all the mods you wish. Unfortunately you make those choices before you have the wisdom and insight born of the experience of building and flying one of these, I think this was part of the frustration coming from Nat, he just wanted you to build it first and finish it, the likelyhood of actually finishing a project of this scale is usually low in most circles, canardians seem to be a tenacious lot, the likelyhood of finishing your project is inversly proportional to the amount of changes you make. The Cozy plans are pretty comprehensive so if you just

-do-something- per plans every day it will finish as long as you keep at it.

...Chrissi

[chasingmars]

I think I'm in this "wake up and smell the coffee" phase myself at the moment. My "good" ideas have done a great deal to slow me down, cost me money, and create parts I've needed to scrap.

 

The further along I get, the happier I am with the plans. Like anything I guess, one starts not knowing what what doesn't know, then you start to figure that part out, and it takes a while sometimes.

[rickh]

Tough to judge who the idiots are based on some posts on a forum ........ but there are those who will do their best.

 

Lots of hangar flying going on here.

Yep

 

I'm curious how long my noob tag (not to be confused with name tag or guten tag) will last, and if [when] it leaves, should I expect some sort of life change event? Would I then know it all, or would I be starting an entirely different noob phase? Horizontal move, if you will.

 

The "Peter Principal" in the aviation world?

 

Rick

[argoldman]

I think I'm in this "wake up and smell the coffee" phase myself at the moment. My "good" ideas have done a great deal to slow me down, cost me money, and create parts I've needed to scrap.

 

The further along I get, the happier I am with the plans. Like anything I guess, one starts not knowing what what doesn't know, then you start to figure that part out, and it takes a while sometimes.

Actually, Craig

 

It is, to quote a once cabinet member (who himself, stole that quote),

 

It's not knowing that you don't know, which then you find out that you don't know!!!

 

Experimenting and changing is what this field is all about, however it comes at a tremendous cost of time $ and frustration:confused:

[chasingmars]

I'm curious how long my noob tag (not to be confused with name tag or guten tag) will last, and if [when] it leaves...

I'm figuring I'll just throw it up in the air on my hopefully eventual first flight and hope it stays up there. Until then, I figure I don't really know what I'm talking about