Please, a newbie in distress - Cozy or Long??

[Drekar]

Please help me oh great sages of Canardia!!

 

I am having a really tough time deciding which craft is "for me"; the Long-EZ or the Cozy. I just can't seem to find the information I need! I would really appreciate some help as i am really close to plopping down the money for plans.

 

So, here are my big questions.

 

1) How small of an engine can I stick in a Cozy, how small in a Long? That might be a huge cost difference in both build and long term costs.

 

2) How much more complex is the Cozy to build? In particular, will the Long substantially cut down on my build time?

 

3) Is the Cozy that much more "refined" than the Long? Enough to sway me away from the Long?

 

4) What are the relative performance numbers assuming the lowest common denominator of engine? Rough figures?

 

5) Am I forgetting anything ?

 

Things that don't really matter to me:

Side-by-side seating (I will usually be solo)

cost of airframe (apparently the difference is negligible)

Extra two seats (Sure, it would be nice, but if I have to drop in a much larger engine, I would rather just travel light).

 

Thanks so much for any advice, I am going nuts. If I can't decide soon, I may just go build an RV-9

 

- Luke

[Phil Kriley]

You will want 180 hp (at least) in the Cozy. If you will be solo, don't need the extra 2 seats, and are more concerned about economy, then build the Long EZ. Complexity of the build looks to be about the same - the plans for the two planes are almost identical - no more parts in the Cozy than in the Long EZ - they're just a little bigger, AFAIK. Hope this helps! BTW - the RV-9 is a great little plane. You may want to also consider the Zenith CH-601. Built times for the all-metal kits are a lot shorter, especially if you purchase the quick-build kits. Take the Sport-air workshops for metal-working and composite building - then you can decide if you'd rather build with fiberglass or metal.

[Jon Matcho]

There are quite a few FAST Long-EZs with Lycoming 320s and 360s in them. On the other end, you have a choice of much smaller engines. Don't you think you'll eventually wish you had more power?

 

I understand your concern about power -- I wish the Cozy would be comfortable with a smaller engine, BUT Jerry Schneider is putting a 320 in his, and others have done the same. You just need a bit more runway, or a climb prop, or an adjustable prop. Still, the "sweet spot" for a Cozy IV seems to be a 360. The Cozy III and Classic models (3-place) were designed for 320s I believe.

 

The other thing to consider is that the Cozy is a better traveling aircraft, with tons of room for baggage AND 2 people. I also like the thought of having an empty seat to throw stuff on when I'm alone. The Cozy has more utility than a Long-EZ.

 

If you're driven by long-term cost of ownership, the Long-EZ has an edge, unless you put a 360 in it. You can definitely save costs with smaller engines in a Long-EZ. Still, if you get a Cozy with a 360 (same engine as an entry-level Cessna), you'll be in the same league as most others. Subscribe to the Central States Newsletter to get a list of canard flyers and their engine choices -- definitely worth your while.

 

Taking a step back, I see these engine choices as different sorts of apples with similar performance considerations. The big jump is when you add two more cylinders and step up to a 6-cylinder Lycoming 540 -- as is specified for many of the larger Velocity aircraft, the former Berkut (suped up Long-EZ kit), and Jack Morrison's E-Racer. There's a Cozy with a 540, and perhaps some others. Many of the Rotary guys are looking at high-horsepower (thirsty) setups. Don't forget about a few others that are playing with jet engines. In that context, a 360-powered canard is definitely an economical aircraft.

 

That was useful for me at least -- I'm looking forward to installing a 360 down the line.

[Drekar]

So, with an 0-320, does the Long have appreciably better performance than the Cozy (thinner, lighter, etc. I would assume it does)?

 

If the "sweet spot" of a Cozy is the 360, is there any consensus as to the "sweet spot" on the Long? That would probably give me a good idea of the differences!

 

Thanks again for any more insight you can give.

 

-Luke

[Drekar]

Another question. The RV-9A was originally designed for a 118hp engine (wow, tiny). With that, it has the following characteristics at solo weight

 

118hp engine RV-9A:

Top Speed 173 mph

Cruise [75% @ 8000 ft]

Cruise [55% @ 8000 ft]

 

What do you think I could get in the Long with the same engine?

 

FYI I am 5'9" and 170lbs.

 

Thanks again, you all are quite helpful!

 

-Luke

[Remi Khu]

You have quite a selection amongst the canard family.

 

There are side-by-side arrangement with the Cozys, the ERacer, and the Velocity. It's a matter of choice if you want cargo room in the back seats. My primary mission for the Cozy is to fly 2 in the front seat with lots of cargo space in the back seat and the ability to haul a*s on xc flights.

 

If your mission profile is mostly for solo long xc flights, I would especially look at the Berkut or the Long EZ. The Berkut is mostly of carbon fiber and therefore stiffer, which translate into rougher turbulence penetration.

 

A long time Long EZ flyer friend intimated that he upgraded to the O-320 so he can keep up with his EZ buddies when flying formation. I suppose it sucks being the one bringing up the rear or causing the flight to slow down waiting for you.

 

As I progress in my build, it's apparent that the numerous mods will add weight which translates into slower speed, aside from the increased build time, hence delay in taking flight.

 

The above are but opinions based not on facts.

[Drekar]

Another question. The RV-9A was originally designed for a 118hp engine (wow, tiny). With that, it has the following characteristics at solo weight

 

118hp engine RV-9A:

Top Speed 173 mph

Cruise [75% @ 8000 ft]

Cruise [55% @ 8000 ft]

 

What do you think I could get in the Long with the same engine?

 

FYI I am 5'9" and 170lbs.

 

Thanks again, you all are quite helpful!

 

-Luke

Ack, I messed up my last post, here it is again:

 

Another question. The RV-9A was originally designed for a 118hp engine (wow, tiny). With that, it has the following characteristics at solo weight

 

118hp engine RV-9A:

Top Speed 173 mph

Cruise [75% @ 8000 ft] 167 mph

Cruise [55% @ 8000 ft] 151 mph

 

What do you think I could get in the Long with the same engine?

 

FYI I am 5'9" and 170lbs.

 

Thanks again, you all are quite helpful!

 

-Luke

[Drekar]

OK, yet another way to word this same question.

 

I want the ultimate in efficient long range solo x/c flying. If I installed an 0-320 in a Long, what performance numbers can I expect?

 

There, that should be better. Sorry to be so post-happy, but I can't seem to find performance numbers anywhere!

[Drew Swenson]

For a Longez, you will be much happier with an O320. A Cozy really needs an O360. You will see many Longezs (Cozys for that matter) with the same engine---flying much different speeds-----mostly due to paying more attention to drag. This is not to say that the engine does contribute to speed----but most of the speed demons have spent a lot of time cutting drag. You really notice engine size in climb performance and takeoff performance.

 

You really need to define your flying requirements (tempered with your funds available) to see which airplane you want.

 

The Longez is a more "roomier" airplane for the pilot----and passengers are more happier in the Cozy. Packing (for two) for a week or two in a Longez is a challange---but can be done. Packing (for two) for a week or two in a Cozy is easy---you can practically take the kitchen sink with you.

 

I find the Cozy to be more sporty in roll. But I really like the view and room better in the Longez.

 

If you think that you will most likely be by yourself the most----the Cozy is probably too much plane. If I flew only myself and/or my wife---I would still be with the Longez. Now with 3, I have a Cozy---still in the Canard world!!

[Jon Matcho]

The Longez is a more "roomier" airplane for the pilot...

 

...But I really like the view and room better in the Longez.

Interesting. I've never thought of the Cozy to be less roomier than a Long-EZ, but I think I know why that is. The Long-EZ has its strake compartments taken all the way up front, so you can rest your elbows in there. The Cozy IV design does not have this, but maybe the Cozy III does? In any event, a new trend for Cozy IV builders is to modify the design of the strakes per the Long-EZ design so that both pilot and passenger have more upfront elbow room (at least one elbow each).

[airwrench]

Interesting. I've never thought of the Cozy to be less roomier than a Long-EZ, but I think I know why that is. The Long-EZ has its strake compartments taken all the way up front, so you can rest your elbows in there. The Cozy IV design does not have this, but maybe the Cozy III does? In any event, a new trend for Cozy IV builders is to modify the design of the strakes per the Long-EZ design so that both pilot and passenger have more upfront elbow room (at least one elbow each).

remember, mods can be applied easilly to the ez, wider and longer have been done many times, but I have to say that the cozy has a more utilitarian flare than does the ez;)

[Drew Swenson]

On roominess between CozyIV (per plans) and Longez (per plans) for the pilot:

-Moving the strake forward won't help much in this regard----but may help in some other areas.

-The 4 things taking room away on the Cozy are:

--The longeron is much closer to the shoulder on the Cozy

--The canopy comes real close to the head----and it rakes faster towards the front. (Looks like there are several people out there like Wayne Hicks who basically had his canopy blown out to (nearly) the fuselage wall---very cool. The design canopy pinches in somewhat.)

--The footwells are kind of confining compared to a longez (The Cozy kind of makes you keep your legs together due to the curvature of the nose wheel well. The Longez has you straddling the wheel well which is more comfortable. Wondering if Steve Wright offset his wheel well for this reason on the Staggerez)

--In a Cozy---you have someone sitting next to you---and rather close---I think the S Wright solved this prob by the stagger seating. Even when you don't have someone sitting next to you, you still feel a little confined due to the longeron and canopy

 

With that said, you can always make mods to eliminate these "problems." "Problems" is probably too harsh of a word---more like "just different characteristics". I now prefer a Cozy due to the number of seats, cargo carrying capacity, and Longez type performance. If I did not need the seats, I would go back to a Longez (I made due with the Longez's limited cargo capacity in the past).

 

In the end, they are both very fun machines and attract a lot of attention at airports.

[Jon Matcho]

Good points Drew, but I can't wait until I have these "problems".

 

Someday, when I'm building my 2nd Cozy , I'll know how to build the longerons to be flush with the sides for a little more room.

[Drekar]

Great! Thank you all for the responses so far. I think i have been officially swayed to do the Long-EZ / Open-EZ (well, that may change, I seem to flip-flop a lot...). Anyone know what the normal "efficient" cruse GPH and airspeed will be in a 0-320 powered Long?

 

I will be doing a lot of landings at fairly high altitudes (Colorado). Anyone have any experience with the Long-EZ "hot and high"? I know the canard design eats runway, but I am not sure just how much. I actually have family right near Leadville, CO....

 

Thanks again!!

 

-Luke

[bhassel]

Someday, when I'm building my 2nd Cozy , I'll know how to build the longerons to be flush with the sides for a little more room.

See this link from Marc about the longeron adjustment (look for the highlight).

 

http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net/showthread.php?t=2884&highlight=longeron+shoulder

[Remi Khu]

Great! Thank you all for the responses so far. I think i have been officially swayed to do the Long-EZ / Open-EZ (well, that may change, I seem to flip-flop a lot...). Anyone know what the normal "efficient" cruse GPH and airspeed will be in a 0-320 powered Long?

 

I will be doing a lot of landings at fairly high altitudes (Colorado). Anyone have any experience with the Long-EZ "hot and high"? I know the canard design eats runway, but I am not sure just how much. I actually have family right near Leadville, CO....

 

Thanks again!!

 

-Luke

If you want first-hand answers to your questions, and possibly get a ride, I urge you to attend the Rough River fly-in coming up in 2 weeks. There is a builder in Denver, Rick Maddy, that's flying out in a 4-seat Diamond composite.

[Jon Matcho]

See this link from Marc about the longeron adjustment...

I wonder now whether I should have attempted that (it's always easier in hindsight). The problem is that, when staring at very clear plans, it's hard to think about improving when you're doing your best to understand what's going on. I'm sure there's a few more gotchas with this modification, and I don't know anyone who has done it. Not saying that it's difficult -- it appears straightforward -- but there will be additional considerations to be made elsewhere (such as the holes through the firewall).

[Jon Matcho]

...there will be additional considerations to be made elsewhere (such as the holes through the firewall).

Some more:

• Most all bulkheads (at the point where they meet the upper longeron)
• Turtledeck?

I don't think the lower longerons need to be moved at all.

[Jon Matcho]

If you want first-hand answers to your questions, and possibly get a ride, I urge you to attend the Rough River fly-in coming up in 2 weeks. There is a builder in Denver, Rick Maddy, that's flying out in a 4-seat Diamond composite.

Good timing Remi! I was going to fly into RR w/Rick, but my plans have just changed -- I need to leave Denver earlier than expected.

 

I just spoke w/Rick and he said he would certainly be willing to share some expenses w/you for a trip to Rough River and back. You can look Rick's contact info. up at his site or let me know and I'll connect you two.

 

See attached for the dual glass panel you'd get to experience on your way there (taken from a ride Rick gave me last year). The fun at Rough River is just waiting for you...

[Remi Khu]

Good timing Remi! I was going to fly into RR w/Rick, but my plans have just changed -- I need to leave Denver earlier than expected.

 

I just spoke w/Rick and he said he would certainly be willing to share some expenses w/you for a trip to Rough River and back. You can look Rick's contact info. up at his site or let me know and I'll connect you two.

 

Thanks for the offer Jon, but I was responding to the original poster, Luke. It seems to me that he needs to experience canard flights first hand to validate his decision. I thought he is from Colorado, based on his posting, so I referred him to Rick Maddy for a ride-share to RR.

 

I'll be driving to RR with Terry Yake again. It will be so nice to see the gang, hope you'll make it Jon.

[Drekar]

Thanks a lot for the help! I definitely count myself a Coloradoan, but am currently stationed semi-permanently in Dallas, TX.

 

I think you are right Remi, the best thing for me is probably to hunt down other builders/flyers and see what they have to show/say!

 

So far, after a lot of research, it looks like the Long-EZ is indeed more efficient than the RV-9a, moderately. Also, above and beyond the benefits of the canard pusher design, it also has a distinctive edge in initial outlay of cash, and an edge in total build cost. It also appears to be a simpler design (simplicity is definitely a good thing). The downsides, so far are that it is a bit slower of a build, and will be unable to operate out of grass / short strips. It also has a higher landing speed and (by some accounts) is harder to fly than the RV.\

 

So, it looks to me like I will be building one of the first Open-EZs! Now it is just a matter of finishing my current project (biodiesel refinery) so that I can start on this one.

 

-Luke

[Jon Matcho]

Thanks for the offer Jon...

Whoops, my bad -- I actually MEANT to refer to Drekar, and referred Rick to him as well (not you).

 

It will be so nice to see the gang, hope you'll make it Jon.

Yes it will, and I look forward to seeing you as well. Your project looks great BTW.

[Drekar]

Well, thanks for giving me the info everyone. Just thought you might like to know that I now have a clean garage, and nice big new workbench.

 

I am really looking forward to the build process, but I must admit it is a little worrysome that nowhere can I find a time estimate for how long it will take to build a Long-EZ. Anyone know what the general consensus is for build time, assuming to-plans and consistent time investment?

 

Thanks!

 

-Luke

[Waiter]

I logged over 3000 hours building my Long. Start to finish took about 9 years. Actual build took just under 3 years. I was living in Japan for several years and wasn't able to take my project with me. Plus my job occasionally kept me away from home for 6 to 9 months at a time.

 

 

Waiter

[Drekar]

hmm... that's a tiny bit longer than I was hoping I must admit. Not that I don't want to build, but I /also/ want to fly