Project: Free Long-EZ Templates

[Jon Matcho]

Bear with me I'm a little busy I'm trying to make time to finish these and still get 4 hrs of sleep a night.

Please don't go nuts over this -- slow and steady. Remember, this is a hobby! I too have a ton of things to do, AND want to be building more. My minimum is 6 hours/night, 7 ideal, and 8 feeling like a lazy pig. The most 4/5-hour nights I can do now is about 2, and pay for it on the 3rd day (when 8 hours is not lazy). Slow and steady...

 

did you get the firewall drawings?

Yes, they looked quite good.

 

My only other comments are little things, which I'd like to get into that project tracking software I mentioned earlier. Let me see what I can do towards getting that setup later this week.

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

sounds good. I'm off tomorrow and have class in the morning once that is taken care of I'll see if I can't have those to you by tomorrow.

 

Tony

[longez2006]

Hello everyone,

 

it seems this all started because of me...

It's great that you are putting this up for free, but I will be the devil's advocat now so that you can focus and get this thing done properly:

 

1. Are you sure that it is legal to distribute the Templates?

 

Yes, you are not refering to Rutan or RAF, and there are other designs out there based on the Long EZ, absolute clones (the french even fly a AcroEze), but I don't recall anyone distributing, it was always individual projects, and in the shadows, as you say... It is quite possible that Rutan is liable for a design that you modify and distribute...

 

2. Can you make modifications to the design?

 

Well, you are changing things, and those things that were not approved by RAF, haven't been properly tested. Oh yes, there are a thousand other planes flying with these mods, but none of them has gone through extensive flight testing of those mods. Maybe one day one aircraft will enter a specific flight situation and one of these modifications will kill someone. I know a lot of people who remove the lower winglets from the Long EZ, and nothing happens, but in a high AoA slow flight situation the lateral stability of the aircraft is probably lessened...

Who is responsible if that happens? The people who distribute? Legally it may put you on a difficult stand, have you thought of that?

 

Just my share of thoughts so that you may think things over and do what you are planning in the best way. If you want to distribute, put the cad or pdf files in a P2P program, such as emule or kazaa and then I assure you it will spread like wild fire, and it will be difficult to trace the distributers.

 

Best wishes

[Jon Matcho]

1. Are you sure that it is legal to distribute the Templates?

Yes, and after discussion w/my corporate lawyer, I'm even more convinced. Regardless, that doesn't mean that the activity wouldn't attract a letter or two.

 

It is quite possible that Rutan is liable for a design that you modify and distribute...

No way, especially if the difference is documented.

 

2. Can you make modifications to the design?

 

Well, you are changing things, and those things that were not approved by RAF, haven't been properly tested.

This relates to your prior point. For RAF to speak up at this point is for them to assume some level of responsibility. Ideally (for RAF), the plane would be changed from its original design as that would disconnect them from any liability.

 

Who is responsible if [an accident] happens? The people who distribute? Legally it may put you on a difficult stand, have you thought of that?

Sure, I've thought about it, but am generally not in fear. If I had PDFs of exact reproductions of the Long-EZ templates, I would hypothetically put them up for download tomorrow without much hesitation.

 

If I had a full set of modified Long-EZ templates, I would do the same but qualify with instructions to use at your own risk. Also, most all kit manufacturers have statements about not being able to control quality of the build. This is even more true of any plans-based approach.

 

Just my share of thoughts so that you may think things over and do what you are planning in the best way.

Thank you!

 

If you want to distribute, put the cad or pdf files in a P2P program, such as emule or kazaa and then I assure you it will spread like wild fire, and it will be difficult to trace the distributers.

I can't keep up with this crap anymore, and would much rather confront the issue head-on, legally and openly.

 

In general, I'm very comfortable with making your work (tonyslongez) as well as reproductions of templates available as a download here, hypothetically speaking.

[tonyslongez]

In general, I'm very comfortable with making your work (tonyslongez) as well as reproductions of templates available as a download here, hypothetically speaking.

 

Jon

just wanted to clarify that the last post wasn't me. Tonyslongez, and I apologize for not sending the bulkheads to you yet, they are almost done just a liittttllllleeee moooorrrreeeeee

 

LUV YA

 

Tony

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

also, sorry! but I think I deleted your E-mail can you give to me again? The front seat blk-hed is done one side is 3D the other is 2D for ease of reading the dimensions. I'll send it right away still working on the rear seat bulkhead that one is a little trickier in cad because of the "HELL HOLE"

 

Tony

[Jon Matcho]

just wanted to clarify that the last post wasn't me.

Whoops.

 

also, sorry! but I think I deleted your E-mail can you give to me again?

jonmatcho@gmail.com

 

Again, no rush, but am looking forward.

[Dr. Boom]

My buddy and I have bought a set of plans from terf.com. We would really like to build a Long EZ. If you need someone to kick in for getting the templates digitized, let us know. We want to start this as soon as possible. If the templates are already being digitized, what can we do to help and what do we need to do to get access to what already exists.

 

Thanks,

 

Cayce and Mark

[Jon Matcho]

If you need someone to kick in for getting the templates digitized, let us know.

Thanks -- it may require some sort of initial ante for the first few "sponsors".

 

If the templates are already being digitized, what can we do to help and what do we need to do to get access to what already exists.

I have a good lead on original templates, which I plan on having digitized when/if they arrive. My goal is to reproduce exactly as-is, which is different than the work Tony (tonyslongez) is doing -- which is also great work and another option to consider.

 

All that can be done right now is to wait and keep asking if they're ready.

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

Did you get that front seat Blkhed I sent you? I'm working on the rear now other than those two and the landing gear detail we will be pretty much done with the fuselage bulkheads(do we even need to draw those aren't they in the TERF cd's?) . What we really need scanned are the wing and winglet templates. If we know what airfoil the wing and winglet are I can have my buddy send it to me in digital format,eliminating any errors in drawing them by hand can you find that out? what else needs to be drawn? what about the wing strake baffles? are they in the TERF cd as well? is the TERF cd just the plans set copied into digital format? if so the only thing I really have to draw is the landing gear detail, (if I can get the naca foil for our wings and winglet). and some miscellaneous things that are on the sides of the original templates, showing longeron details and radius of the lower fuse nothing major though. Oh yes and I can make my ng30 detail into an original nose (YUUUUKKK) should I put that in 3D? sure would look cool

the only thing is to really appreciate all that work you really have to have a CAD based program it really helps. this is the delemma I'm doing some really time consuming drawings that not everyone is going to be able to see really suxs

 

Tony

[AP3_C]

Re:- Wing section

 

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't the wing section for the Long-Eze been slightly modified from the basic aerofoil? I cannot remember but it is I believe a slightly modified Eppler or NACA foil.

 

Because the foil is modified (?) you may find it very difficult to obtain the co-ordinates to plot the foil.

 

Keep up the great work.

 

Jamie

[j hinchliffe]

Guys,

 

I didn't find it too difficult to download cad software, now how to work it!

Only pulling your leg. I have managed to view Tony's bulkhead drawings from EZ Squadron without any problems, just a matter of printing them off. Keep up the good work. IF iget paid this month i'll treat myself to the TERF cd.

 

Jon, keep me in the picture, same offer from me if you need some 'sponsorship'.

 

I'll carry on lurking in the meantime.

 

John.

[Jon Matcho]

Did you get that front seat Blkhed I sent you?

Yes, and only comment is that I didn't see a width of the stock bulkhead. At some point I'll give all the drawings another review and come up with a list of items, but right now I think they look great.

 

I'm working on the rear now other than those two and the landing gear detail we will be pretty much done with the fuselage bulkheads(do we even need to draw those aren't they in the TERF cd's?)

I'm not sure -- I can check.

 

What we really need scanned are the wing and winglet templates.

Exactly.

 

If we know what airfoil the wing and winglet are I can have my buddy send it to me in digital format,eliminating any errors in drawing them by hand can you find that out?

As Jamie pointed out, I also understand they're slightly modified airfoils, which means they would be best captured via the stock templates IMO.

 

what else needs to be drawn? what about the wing strake baffles? are they in the TERF cd as well?

Dunno -- I'll have to check and itemize a list.

 

is the TERF cd just the plans set copied into digital format? if so the only thing I really have to draw is the landing gear detail, (if I can get the naca foil for our wings and winglet).

Yes. I'll look to take care of the canard/wing/winglet templates, by scanning into PDF.

 

Oh yes and I can make my ng30 detail into an original nose (YUUUUKKK) should I put that in 3D? sure would look cool

Yah, that's going to be required if not in the plans themselves. I understand your focus is on your modified Long-EZ, and personally I would not want to distract you from that. If you had free time to produce more stock Long-EZ 3D views, you'd make many people happy.

 

the only thing is to really appreciate all that work you really have to have a CAD based program it really helps.

The Bentley Viewer is great for browsing 3D views. However, I found it's insufficient for printing -- I'll have to find something else, or shell out some $ to get a "real" CAD system (AutoCAD).

 

this is the delemma I'm doing some really time consuming drawings that not everyone is going to be able to see really suxs

I understand -- so prioritize accordingly. The 3D views are not necessary, and there's no reason they couldn't show up down the road (versus "now").

 

Tony, thanks for your contributions, and I look forward to pulling all this stuff together and taking a next step.

 

Jon, keep me in the picture, same offer from me if you need some 'sponsorship'.

Thanks, and the more the merrier (cheaper). I hope to be able to setup some time at the local university on a super duper scanner they have. Costs will hopefully be most economical. I'll let you know when I find out more.

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

Just wanted to let you know you are doing a heck of a job coordinating all of this, it seemed a bit discouraging at first but it looks like it's coming together. I'll try to do a better job at keeping track of what I've drawn and what still needs to be drawn. I'll go over that 3D bulkhead and put in the stock dims. Your right, I'm initially drawing these for me and my airplane. I'll just send you the stock stuff first. I can modify the drawing after that, should help keep track of all the drawings.

 

Tony

[AVI]

Anybody interested in collaboration to produce and market plans for an "OpenEZ" along the lines of a rounded-fuselage LimoEZ/Berkut with all the latest modifications including retracts? We could call it whatever we wanted to without making reference to Burt Rutan, releasing him from all liability.

The collaboration would involve researching the many modifications that have been done to the original LongEZ design in order to develop a new design with improved building methods. I can do the drawings.

As previously stated, this would be a derivative design that would, according to what's been posted on this thread, circumvent/avoid copyright infringement. It would make a more modern plans-built design available to a new generation of LongEZ enthusiasts.

[tonyslongez]

AVIIX

 

Don't take this the wrong way, go back and read tha other 4 pages of posts on this thread and get caught up on the progress. What you are suggesting is basically what we have been talking about for the last 3 weeks

 

Tony

[Jon Matcho]

Right, we're considering publishing some form of Long-EZ templates, but not the plans (without the templatees) as they're available elsewhere. After that, we're talking derivatives and modifications.

 

Here's a conceptual outline as I see it.

• Long-EZ

• Velocity
• Berkut
• E-Racer
• Cozy III

• Cozy Mark IV

• AeroCanard FG

[*]Tony's Long-EZ

[*]Open Source 2-place

• Modification X

[*]...

I have a few todos on my end, and plan to get some Web software setup to help manage all the files that are flying around so far.

 

I will keep you posted, but remember everyone, this is a hobby and is nobody's day job.

[dpaton]

Tony, Jon-

 

Wow, I go away for a week and magic happens! After another week or three I'll be able to jump in with both feet (finishing some remodeling, moving, and then recovering from moving). This is really getting exciting....

 

 

-dave

[AP3_C]

Tony,

 

I went to get bulk heads plotted (have access to A1 inkjet plotter) and was suggested the following.

a). each individual bulk head be saved as one drawing in paper space (believe drawing has been done in model space). Rather than having multiple pics of the one bulk head in the one drawing. Thus reducing the size paper requied to print on (A1 rather than A0).

 

b)if not already, have text and bulk heads on different layers.

 

Myself I don't really follow what this is all about as I am a self certified AutoCAD numpty. so do not fully understand what the suggestion is all about.

 

Only suggestions.

 

Great work by the way.

[tonyslongez]

Ap3_c

 

I'm glad you like the drawings. What we are trying to accomplish is a more friendly medium to view and print these drawings. I'm trying to get the point out that these can be built without printing them to full scale thats why you see all the dimensions something we didn't have in the originals but if they have to be printed in full scale (Accurate full scale) we need something better than PDF. I printed the DXF files at Kinkos and it was great. but apparently not every Kinkos is so well equiped. So! at this point, all I can do is finish these last drawings and let someone smarter than me figure out how everyone can use them.

 

As far as layering goes I agree that would make things easier for me and you but for everyone else it has no merit they can barely view them now, forget about seperating layers. I'll bet when it's all said and done these drawings will be in some format that will not recognize the layers anyway.

 

Tony

[AP3_C]

Tony

 

Point taken.

 

Jamie

[Wapati8]

Ap3_c

 

I printed the DXF files at Kinkos and it was great. but apparently not every Kinkos is so well equiped. So! at this point, all I can do is finish these last drawings and let someone smarter than me figure out how everyone can use them.

 

Tony

Perhaps post both the DXF files and the pdf files? I can use DXF.

 

---Mike

[H.Zwakenberg]

Hi,

 

what about calling this project a 'Long-Ish' ?

 

 

bye

Hans

[Jon Matcho]

I expect to see some progress on the original Long-EZ templates this week or next. Electronic versions of those will be in PDF, likely with a horizontal and vertical ruler added for reference (physically copied onto the drawing).

 

I am also expecting some other drawings for review from the fellow that created the Berkut drawings. He's currently selling his drawings as a set for several hundred dollars. I understand these are useful for Long-EZ builders as well as other canard builders. I look forward to seeing what these are about.

 

On the CAD files side, we should agree on some standards for those that are working w/CAD. For now, I suggest we continue with DWG files, but those that know better can suggest something else, such as DXF. I'm still looking for CAD software myself, but not yet motivated to do more than browse Tony's (other another's) creative works using the AutoCAD viewer.

 

I understand the reasoning behind avoiding the need for printing. However, the ultimate in 'user-friendly' (for me at least) is to be able to reference a full-scale drawing. As Tony points out, this can be avoided, and since Tony is authoring his own templates he's certainly entitled to carry on in that mode.

 

To be continued...

[tonyslongez]

Mike

 

I believe Jon Matcho is working on a folder so you can download these files right from this site. As soon as I finish the rest of these drawings you'll be able to download them here. Maybe we can have a all formats, PDF,DXF,DWG, Etc. Etc......and all you would have to do is download which ever file/format you wanted this may eliminate forcing everyone into a cad viewer. I don't know I'll let Jon field that one.

 

Tony