How to heat a freezing workshop?

[Nathan Gifford]

Also be careful about explosive vapors getting to the flame.

[Hennie Engelbrecht]

Jon Matcho said:

My shop heater was installed today. It's been running on the lowest setting (guessing 15,000 BTU) for the past couple hours. The outside air temp is 18F and inside at table level is 45F.

I'm happy with that for starters, but will be looking for substantial improvements once I get some good insulation installed in the spring. In the meantime, I'm going to put panels and plastic up over the doors and windows. Hopefully that will get me up to 70 degs or so.

Move to middle east and I guarantee you a 100 degrees or so

Hennie

[Jon Matcho]

Waiter said:

Install a ceiling fan and leave it run on low speed all the time.

Already on the list of scheduled todos. I put a shop fan on the floor to circulate the air a bit, and even that raised the temp to ~50F (outside is 14F right now).

What I'm upset about is the internal blower accessory died already. I thought it was weak, and hope that the replacement blows much more air.

It's clear to me that it's all about the insulation. Definitely need to upgrade with some makeshift measures if I'm going to have a chance at 70F.

[Jon Matcho]

Jon Matcho said:

...the internal blower accessory died already.

Just FYI... I looked up my original purchase w/Amazon on the Web, clicked around a bit, and next thing I saw was "UPS will pick up your return tomorrow. In the meantime we're sending you a replacement." I was relieved it was that easy, but still concerned about the lifespan of the blower. At $45 it was likely a waste of money, and would be better spent on a ceiling fan. We'll see how the replacement performs.

I'm running at the lowest setting full-time so the pipes in my bathroom-addition over the garage don't do their annual freezing. In doing this, the garage bay doors (which are of the poorest 25 year old quality possible) are growing ice crystals. I know I need to replace the doors and insulate, but what short-term measures could I put in place so I could get back to doing layups?

[Waiter]

That heater (ventless natural gas) is dumping a huge amount of water into the air. This is probably what is contributing to your ice on the door. You might try sealing off the door with a sheet of plastic. This should help by creating a dead air space and help with the ice formation. The ceiling fan should help keep the air stired so you won't get condensation on the floor. I have one of these ventless heaters in my garage and it will warm up to 75 or 80 if I crank it up.

I have a regular vented 30k BTU in my barn (very well insulated) and it was running about 25% of the time to maintain 70 when it was -15 outside.

Cold in Toledo

Waiter

[Jon Matcho]

Waiter said:

That heater (ventless natural gas) is dumping a huge amount of water into the air.

Now I'm concerned about humidity in the shop. I'm measuring 30-40% with the outside at 15F. I can see running a dehumidifier now to keep things dry. Not exactly what I had in mind for this "vent free" heating system.

[Waiter]

Actually, having the humidity in the air is a good thing. I have a humidifier in my house as part of the central HVAC system. Its set at 40%. Nice and cozy (no pun intended).

The only problem I have with the ventless, is occationally, (not sure if you were Natural gas or LP), our supplier will supply a high sulfer content Natural Gas. This gives off a strong odor of "something burning". This only happenes a couple times during the winterr, but its something to be aware of. If your running LP, this shouldn't be a problem.

My Garage is 24x24 with 4 inches of pink on the walls and ceiling, sheetrocked. I usually keep it at about 45, but if the wife is having a large company, we crank it up and use the garage as a gathering hall.

My Barn is 24 x 32 (Pole barn) that has 6 inches in the walls and 4 in the ceiling, sheetrocked. (no windows) As i stated in previous post, this stays nice and warm and is reasonably well insulated. The roll up door is 8x16 ft. It has 1 inch of styrofoam all the way around.

If your loosing it all thru your roll up door, try sealing it with plastic, or better yet, buy a couple sheets of that 1/2 inch foam (Its aluminized on one side) Maybe cut it and glue it to the panels on your rollup door.

That little heater you have should be able to run you out of there.

Waiter

[Jon Matcho]

Okay... I FINALLY have a shed to allow me to clear out all the crap in my attached garage/canard shop. However, this year I wasn't able to take care of tearing the sheetrock down and insulating. I *think* that there's insulation in the garage walls, and that the primary area of heat loss is in the overhead garage doors. Does anyone have any good ideas on how to seal the place up temporarily, so that I can build throughout the winter?

• Plastic and foam insulation on the doors and single-glass windows (anyone have specifics on how to approach this?)
• Seal up cracks around the doors with spray foam
• Seal up where garage door meets floor with ______
• If walls are NOT insulated (I HOPE they are), then ______ (any cheap & temporary options come to mind?)

Anything else? I'm willing to consider NOT opening either garage door throughout the entire winter.

Also, I'm taking donations to support my natural gas habit this year...

[RGlos]

Jon

Do all the stuff you plan in steps 1 to 3

The Garage door could be a major facture if it a none insulated steel door.

If it is sheet steel as a lot of the older doors are, they are big time radiators

I got some low cost 1" sheet foam from the lumber yard in large sheets. Use liquid nails to glue to the panels of the door. Beofre I did this I cols get the temperature to rise above 30 with the heater on. It was 10 outside. As I was installing the foam form top to bottom the temp started to rise. By the time I was done it was 65 in the garage. Not bad for a 10 degree day outside.

BTW I have only 2" of glass in the ceiling and 2" on the walls covered by sheet rock. The heater is a 40,000 BTU overhead unit

For the bottom of the door you can buy generic seals from ACE hardware.

These you can also glue on but they may only last one winter.

Also 65 degrees on the wall was more like 25 to 30 near the floor

Rick

[Jon Matcho]

RGlos said:

The Garage door could be a major facture if it a none insulated steel door.

If it is sheet steel as a lot of the older doors are, they are big time radiators

It's old cheap wood. I'm planning to do the same with the foam, and am thinking to staple plastic to it as well (to fight drafts).

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By the time I was done it was 65 in the garage. Not bad for a 10 degree day outside.

I hope I can get that much without too much fuel. We'll see, but that's a great reference.

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BTW I have only 2" of glass in the ceiling and 2" on the walls covered by sheet rock. The heater is a 40,000 BTU overhead unit

I hope my insulation is the same. I have a 30,000 BTU near the floor on the wall. Sounds like you have radiant heat on the ceiling?

[RGlos]

Jon

Not quite on the ceiling but on a shelf halfway up.

I would have put it on the floor but picked it up.

Fumes gas, paint etc stay close to the floor

Your wood door is way better than the steel one so with a little work

you can keep it warm enough to get some work done.

BTW, I did no epoxy work unless I could keep it at least 70 degrees and that overnight. Even then I did most of the structural work like wings, canard, center spar etc at about 95 degrees. I waited until summer.

Rick

[Jon Matcho]

RGlos said:

Your wood door is way better than the steel one so with a little work

you can keep it warm enough to get some work done.

Very well then -- I'm going to get the best foam I can find at Home Depot this weekend, and button the place up. I'm looking forward to layups in a t-shirt (long sleeve of course ).

[argoldman]

John DiStefano said:

I really see no benefit to leaving the heat on all the time. .

That really depends on how much you like your steel tools, or anything in your workshop that is made of corrosable metal. Cycling between above freezing and below freezing weather causes the moisture inthe workshop (when it is warm) to condense on the cold metal and institute corrosion.

I keep my hanger at a constant 40F. Since it is 45 minutes away from my home or 1:45 from my office, I can, via telephone, kick the temperature to 70F so that it is warm when I get there.

If anybody wants to know my technique, I will publish it.

[Jon Matcho]

argoldman said:

Cycling between above freezing and below freezing weather causes the moisture inthe workshop (when it is warm) to condense on the cold metal and institute corrosion.

Moisture was quite the issue as I recall last year -- freezing to the garage door walls. I don't recall anything else icing up, so maybe this won't be a major issue. I was surprised to find out that the number one byproduct of natural gas combustion is water vapor!

Quote

If anybody wants to know my technique, I will publish it.

Sure, what is it? Call the local airport boy to turn on the heat?

[Jon Matcho]

I'm almost done w/my insulating measures, and last night I had the heat up to 70 degrees very easily (measured chest high). Even though the temperature outside was 45 degF, I am optimistic that I'll be able to get 70+ degrees with an hour of pre heating (hopefully less) with sub-freezing temps outside.

I have a few more things to do and will keep you posted..

[Jon Matcho]

While working on finishing up the insulation of my garage doors last night, I couldn't help but notice a hole in the sheetrock on one of my garage walls. After further examination I found that all walls are completely hollow.

I had assumed that they were at least filled with cheap batting insulation. I'm now wondering what sort of wintertime temperatures I can expect. Granted it's not as bad as a barn -- there is sheetrock -- but it's not as good as I had assumed.

Knowing that I am definitely going to remodel and rewire my garage next year (or the year after; you know how these things go), any suggestions for interim insulation options:

• seal cracks
• cut slots in walls, run batting through, and replace slots
• glue cheap foam to walls
• apply cheap foil to walls
• ???

All of this would be throwaway (and so needs to be cheap), as I am definitely going to tear down ALL of the sheetrock to properly insulate. I have a bathroom overhead which freezes each winter.

[Wayne Hicks]

You guys I swear, you can be sooo silly with your comfortable working environments. Count your blessings! Those of us who have to finish our planes at airports know all that's necessary is:

(1) Keep the cup of epoxy and the layup(s) warm. I use a heat gun for this.

(2) Keep the curing surface(s) warm. I use a heat tent for this. Layups cure overnight.

(3) Keep the humans above survival temperature. I have a Big Kahuna these days, but I don't run it all the time. Only enough to keep me at or above 40 degrees. And I consider the Big Kahuna a luxury! Before the Big Kahuna, I used the heat gun to heat up my hands. My long johns, jacket, and wool cap did the rest.

No reason to heat the entire workshop to above 70. No reason at'tall. Ta Da now, and tootleloo!

[Neverquit]

How does this heater get away with no carbon monoxide gasses?

Jon, good to see you finally making progress.

[Jon Matcho]

Neverquit said:

How does this heater get away with no carbon monoxide gasses?

From the www.heatershop.com Web site, they say:

Quote

What makes a gas heating product vent free ?

A precision engineered burner (made in the USA - these are not cheap imports) that provides 99% fuel efficiency. This is accomplished by advanced air/gas mixing chambers, burner designs, and many other features all developed to produce the cleanest, most complete possible burn.

 

These units do not require a vent or chimney to exhaust the normally unused by-products of combustion found in vented heaters.

My unit actually comes with an O2 depletion sensor, which shuts down the burn if Ox drops from 20% to 18%. I think that too much CO cannot harm you provided that there's sufficient oxygen, which I would guess is counting on the room being some level of drafty.

I also noticed they have a $59 overhead radiant electric heater that I might look into.

Neverquit said:

Jon, good to see you finally making progress.

Yes, progress feels good. I just need to follow through to a point where I can make building progress (meaning NOT to fully insulate this winter).

Wayne Hicks said:

You guys I swear, you can be sooo silly with your comfortable working environments.

...

No reason to heat the entire workshop to above 70.

Wayne, I admire your ruggedness, but one thing I have found is most underestimated is the importance of a comfortable and local shop. While you are indeed a marvel to the contrary, I am a firm believer that the shop itself is one of your most important tools. If it's comfortable in the shop, you're going to be in there more often AND having fun.

Seriously, I have heard by many that they would have built longer at home if they could. So that is what I'm setting up to do -- year-round building of ALL the parts, with only final assembly and flight testing at the airport.

I hate cold feet.

[Wayne Hicks]

I would have built the entire plane at home if I could. A shop at home is a great thing. And my response was tongue-in-cheek to get you goat, John. But let's not give newbies the idea that a full blown shop is required to build these planes. Some people spend a year or two putting a shop together. Okay, great. A few people built their planes in two years. (I unfortunately am not one of them.) I started with a solid core door held up by two saw horses, a ginzu knife, and all my garage crap piled to one side. The garage got "organized" around Chapter 10.

[Wayne Hicks]

Oh... the Big Kahuna? Oh yeah, it puts out alot of CO. I only run it for a little at a time, to keep me at survival temperature. The Big Kahuna can very easily make the hangar feel like the tropics, but I don't like the headaches and I don't like paying for all that kerosene.

I never used a kerosene heater when I was at home in the garage. Only electric space heaters.

[Jon Matcho]

Wayne Hicks said:

And my response was tongue-in-cheek to get you goat, John.

How come I'm not allowed to get other's goats?

Quote

But let's not give newbies the idea that a full blown shop is required to build these planes. Some people spend a year or two putting a shop together. Okay, great. A few people built their planes in two years.

I give credit to Jerry Schneider for pushing me over the edge to start building. Only after building my bulkheads and running out of room due to an insufficient shop did I realize a series of things that I should have done prior, regardless of building an airplane or not:

• Buy a house -- make sure you have a shed (only now do I actually feel like I own this house)
• Factor a lawn service into your life plan (or forgo a level or two of lawn beautification)
• Have some room for building
• Don't buy a house w/10 years of unnoticed water damage without having that fixed first

Justifying my situation, I'm glad I started and actually stopped. I meant to proceed this way so I would have the experience of a poor shop setup. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Quote

I started with a solid core door held up by two saw horses, a ginzu knife, and all my garage crap piled to one side.

My Chapter 4 table was an 8' executive conference table covered in plastic with a 4'x4' piece of birch on it.

Quote

The garage got "organized" around Chapter 10.

Only difference is that mine will get usable in Chapter 5. Organized and fully functional will likely have to wait for another year.

I want my goat back.

[Len Evansic]

Jon Matcho said:

I think that too much CO cannot harm you provided that there's sufficient oxygen...

Whoa Jon! Don't fall victim to this misconception.

The danger of CO is that it blocks oxygen from being absorbed. You could asphyxiate in a 30% oxygen room if you had just a fraction of a percent of CO. Please have two CO monitors with you in your shop. One about a foot off of the floor, away from drafts and the heaters, and one on the opposite side of the room. That way if one of the detectors is malfunctioning (low battery) you still should have sufficient warning to get out and get the shop ventilated.

-- Len

[Jon Matcho]

levansic said:

The danger of CO is that it blocks oxygen from being absorbed. You could asphyxiate in a 30% oxygen room if you had just a fraction of a percent of CO.

Thanks for the warning Len, I will definitely keep this under consideration and pick up a CO monitor or two.

[CFernandez]

Wayne Hicks said:

I started with a solid core door held up by two saw horses, a ginzu knife, and all my garage crap piled to one side. The garage got "organized" around Chapter 10.

Wayne, I think I have your garage now. (aerocanard.kal-soft.com picture 22).

I couldn't wait anymore the mess was getting to me. I still have the garage but it is a little neater now...not much though .

A big, warm, well lit shop is ideal for sure, but until then I'm building what I can now.