How many non-pilot builders out there?

[Sydmoe]

I was wondering how many people out there currently are building a Cozy or other homebuilt that have not yet received there Private Pilot License (PPL).

 

I have always wanted to fly but never pursued it because of the usual excuses.... no money .... no time...... no money. I use to go to Air Shows every once in and around where I live in Toronto but they mainly Commercial, military or acrobatic type shows. While in Florida I had an opportunity to go to Sun & Fun 2002. It total changed my dream of flying into a goal. Before going there I had heard of people building and flying there own aircraft but I assumed they where very capable aeronautical engineer types. Until I met and talked to people at S&F I really had no idea of exactly how possible it was for the average person to build one of these.

 

In 2003 I began my PPL training and while I have only completed the ground school and about 8 hours dual I am excited to begin the next stage of my goal which is to build and fly my own aircraft. So like my question at the top I am wondering how many people have started their projects before they got their license and determined if they will be capable and comfortable enough to fly.

 

My other problem getting started in the build process is the wife. While she is very supportive in most things I do she thinks wanting to build my own plane is simply nuts. When I bring up the subject she lays the guilt trip on me about widowing her and my 4 and 5 year old. She came to Sun& Fun with me and did get to experience the same thing I did and she did seem to enjoy it, but she still is reluctant. So…..for you guys out there who faced similar resistance what tactics did you use to get the spouse on board?

 

I have read a ton since I joined this forum a few days ago and I think you guys are doing a great job sharing info and giving new comers something exciting to get involved in.

 

Look forward to your input,

[Jon Matcho]

I am a non-flying builder. It has been my experience that when you ask the question "Should I get my certificate before I start building?", you will typically get a knee-jerk reaction of "Yes, you should", but without much real justification. I have since phrased the question as, "What do you think about me building a Cozy before getting my license, and getting a license within 2 years of finishing?" Answers to that question have been agreeable, perhaps because I am acknowledging that I'm not going to take off from the local school yard.

 

Reading your post, your biggest hurdle may not be whether you are to be a capable builder or flyer...

 

When I bring up the subject she lays the guilt trip on me...

Not sure what I can offer here, but you really need to connect with her on this. Have you tried having a specific and sincere conversation about what YOU want to do? She may also benefit from some education with regard to homebuilt aircraft.

 

Apparently you have been cleared to take lessons, and fly in a plane built by who-knows-who, that's been maintained by that person's neighbor, and one that neither you nor your spouse really have any idea for the shape it's really in. By building your own plane, you'll know ever piece and part of the plane.

 

Composite aircraft are more durable and weather resistant in many areas than their "spam can" counterparts.

 

This doesn't actually need to become an official worry until you finish the plane (years from now).

 

Hope just some of that helped...

[Dan Tomlinson]

Well, I'm on hiatus from flying, and building whenever I can.

 

You should come down and see what it's really like. I'm just south of you at Bloomington Rd!

 

And it's certainly discussable with both me and my wife. IF or when we're both home!

 

Personally, it's not a matter of fly first or build first - I know both types through RAA, and both methods work. It strictly comes down to "mission requirements"! Can you really determine what you want an airplane for if you haven't a license?

 

 

Quote:

When I bring up the subject she lays the guilt trip on me...

 

OK - that one is REAL easy to solve - it's simply a matter of usually unfounded fear due to overhype from the media machine. And then understanding the safety inherent in aviation. As you are "very low time" I suspect YOU don't even understand the inherent safety as you probably haven't been exposed to it yet at 8 hours!

 

The Cozy is probably at the top of "safe" and "survivable" aircraft in existance. If she's worried, mention skydiving or powered lawn-mower chairs! (Just kidding of course!)

 

I'll PM contact info for a visit if you're interested, and after that see about arranging a "family" visit about turning dreams into reality. Or just see what the process is like!

 

/dan

[Spodman]

I'm currently in a much more pathetic group, the non-flying non-builder.

 

The missus, and the odd mate, say learn to fly first. Reason? As Dan says: Mission Requirements. Flying may be a passion for you, or just another toy in the toybox.

 

So many of my friends have learnt to fly, then not flown again. I've waited until I have an actual reason to fly, but I won't really know if I want to lock myself into a shed for 5 years until I can do it.

 

Besides, that's how She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed has ordained it

[Rocking Rukaj]

I had never heard of homebuilding before until a few years ago two friends of mine started bringing books and magazines about building at the local coffee house and discussed the subject. They said they were building a biplane in the living room. I thought they were crazy, I poked jokes at them every time I saw them. After all planes are manufactured in big factories with BIG machines, computers etc.

It wasn’t until later when I heard of EAA. Pretty soon I started searching the internet and learned about different airplanes and builders.

I found the Co-Z Development and from there Marc’s site and other builders sites and this forum, of course. Went to Air venture 2003 and Sun-&-Fun 2004(I didn’t talk to Nat I am a bit shy ). I liked what I saw, so for my birthday I convinced my wife to by me the plans. It took a grate deal of nagging but I finely did convince her. She thinks that I am crazy and I don’t dare tell the rest of the family.

I chose the Cozy because of the looks mainly and its plans build, it has a good performance and its economical. The more I read about Nat the more I admire him and the rest of the builders. Being a member of the cozy bunch is a real good feeling. Wife says that I joined a cult and the plans are my bible.

I don’t have a PPL, in fact I never went up in a small airplane. But I like building things and can’t wait to start building the Cozy (in a year). As far as flying goes I can easily picture myself in the left seat of the Cozy and I was always exited about flying since I was a kid.

Once its built and flying wife is gone be flying too I am sure.

[Dan Tomlinson]

There are people who love to build - airplanes or anything else. If this is you, then build! There are people who love to fly, and could never dedicate significant time and effort required to properly and safely build an airplane! It is primarily a project that requires an understanding that you will do it right or do it over. It will also fly when it's done and ready, not according to some artificial schedule.

 

I've met and worked with about 70 A/C builders (a half dozen cozy builders) in the past 5 years or so, and being almost done the airframe on my Cozy understand the "build" drive required to complete a significant project like this. AND I understand how much importance the "wife" factor is in being able to successfully complete a project like this!

 

Of about 20 builders I know locally, 7 are licensed and current, 4 are licensed and non-current like me, and 9 are unlicensed. about 5 haven't even started to earn their license!

 

I have a great wife who is fully behind me in the project - as is the best case. I know a couple of wives who are fully involved in the projects (mine isn't except when needed for some major stuff) and some accepting (just buying add'l insurance), and some who believe their partner will never finish! A percentage "upgrade" their wives as part of the process too. I know of 2!

 

I mentioned this and other cases, to my wife last night, and her reaction was "I don't understand why some wives are not supportive of their husband's desires!"

 

Personally, there were a LOT of decisions to be made before selecting an aircraft to build or buy - and I spend a LONG time making the decision. Spent a long time with the AeroCrafter Guide also determining what plane would meet my requirements too - then checking out every one that matched - about 12 types for me.

 

Mission requirements are the driver primarily. Mission requirements for a 2nd aircraft will be considerably different - it will be for a different purpose!

 

The Regs and Options in Canada are so much broader than before - and rightly so. OBAM and OM aircraft make it possible, much safer and much less expensive than certificated aircraft due to significant work by RAA and COPA with the regulators. The USA is starting to get there too, but ICAO is still a huge bottleneck for everyone as their primary thrust has always been transport airliners.

 

Visit and work on a local project or 3, join beneficial organizations, and learn everything you can.

 

You WILL find that compared to most cars, an airplane IS relatively simple, with not much to go wrong if properly designed and built. And if properly designed, is extremely safe!

 

The Cozy's accident history bears this out. Even the accidents that have happened over the last few years have been survived due to the way it is designed - and I can't think of another design with as good a safety record!

[PaulL]

I got my SQ2000 canard kit just before I finished my license. I figure that

I have a better feel for building flying qualities into the bird - safety,

flying convenience features, etc. From a strictly economical view, its much

cheaper to leave the license until near finished - you don't have to rent

to keep up the skill. But then its pretty iffy to do initial flights with 50+ hours

behind your belt. I flew my bird first after only about 120 hours and considered

that low.

 

--------------------------------------------

SQ2000 canard: http://www.abri.com/sq2000

[Jon Matcho]

I don’t have a PPL, in fact I never went up in a small airplane.

Don't think that you're the "greenest" one out there . Chad Robinson has you beat. He bought plans in the same state as you, but without ever having seen a Cozy in person.

 

He has a great Web site w/Cozy info. at www.lucubration.com.

[Jon Matcho]

I mentioned this and other cases, to my wife last night, and her reaction was "I don't understand why some wives are not supportive of their husband's desires!"

My wife gets me now and again by saying, "I'm not sure about this airplane stuff." I immediately panic, then look at her to find I'd just been had.

 

I credit Dewey Davis' Web site as perhaps THE source of inspiration for me pushing me over the edge. There I found he had built a Cozy and was flying his wife and 2 kids all over the place on family vacations! "I need to do that!", I thought. I'm not sure if me showing her Dewey's site helped her through whatever process she needed to go through, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.

[Denny Mortensen]

Well I am a non pilot builder and was going to get my license at the same time I started but was told by a flight instructor the best practice would be to build first learn to fly later. His logic was, and it sounded good to me, if I learned now I would spend all my money and time staying current and would not have enough time or cash left to build the plane. Besides the way I see it building a plane is sort of a life long quest and even if I never do learn to fly it I will still have the enjoyment my just building it. As far as the wife thing I can’t answer as I am not married but maybe you can approach it this way. It will take at least 6 years to build the plane and perhaps several more depending on how much time you can devote to it. Tell her by the time you get finished you will be old and gray and she won’t want you around any more anyway. That and just tell her about all those wonderfully hours you wont be bugging her as you will be out in your work shop.

Good Luck

Denny

[Jon Matcho]

His logic was, and it sounded good to me, if I learned now I would spend all my money and time staying current and would not have enough time or cash left to build the plane.

For what it's worth, I entirely agree. Some say that you need to find out if you like flying, but what if you just know?

 

It will take at least 6 years to build the plane and perhaps several more depending on how much time you can devote to it. Tell her by the time you get finished you will be old and gray and she won’t want you around any more anyway.

You can also point out that the expense is comparable to a hobby, such as golfing.

[Sydmoe]

Tell her by the time you get finished you will be old and gray and she won’t want you around any more anyway. That and just tell her about all those wonderfully hours you wont be bugging her as you will be out in your work shop.

Good Luck

Denny

That'll work!......she may even pay for the plans!

[niceez]

HI All,

 

This one I would like to chime in on this one since I am a professional builder and still refurbish and assist builders/pilots in building and buying canard airplanes.

 

For the guys who just like to build - fine But it is like the blind leading the blind. Building an airplane the wrong way is to assume that following the plans to an end page will produce what you really want. I would consider this a waste of time, effort and money... all your choice of course.

 

The problems lie when it comes to choosing whether it is electrical systems, avionics, electronic ignition and any time a choice of options or alternatives comes into play. Wouldn't it be more difficult to make the "correct decision" if you had no understanding of "why" something needs to be a certain way. You actually would be clueless about considering it.

 

The school of thought about getting your pilot license now (correct term is Pilot Certificate) and having to keep it current is pure B.S. Once you have a Certificate, you always have it and your current medical certificate is what keeps it alive. Of course if you had earned your wings you would already know this. (And that is kind-of my point).

Let me pose the question – How do you know you can even pass the medical exam? In my other career I speak a great deal about health and I am always surprised at the answers I get when I ask the question, “Are you pretty healthy.” Look – In the real world healthy means – Takes no medications and is not seeing a doctor for anything other then a semi annual exam nor is there any reason to seek a doctor. So if your taking those pills for whatever – you might be in for a surprise. Let’s not forget about hearing and vision. Back to the pilot certificate and comments that were made. allow your self to become non current. Once you understand how to fly, getting back into it is easy and a simple 10 hour process at the most.

 

All I am saying is that if you start off by at least knowing full well that you can fly then the excitement for building is kept at an all time high. Building an airplane is not easy and has to become a labor of love. The information you learn will make you a better person and you will come away wondering where the sheep skin is at because of the amount of time, mental effort, and real education you get from airplane construction. One more thing, building and maintaining an airplane are totally different. You local A&P mechanic is just that, a mechanic to repair an airplane unless of course he has happen to start from scratch and build his own airplane which is the best kind of A & P. Most A& P’s are worthless to you. Now I did not say A & P’s were worthless – just worthless to you so lets please keep this clear.

 

The real trick to building an airplane is to get it straight and figure out how much “fru-fru” extra stuff you don’t need. Remember your trying to defy gravity.

 

About the spouse issue. She needs to be on your side or you stand a good chance of divorce. I have witnessed this many times. You say no-way Hose. Consider that you have worked three long years on you project and she say's it's me or the plane

 

You now how attached the women get to a child after carring it just 9 months. That's right fellas' your attitude is going to change after putting all the time money and effort into "your baby."

 

Perhaps your wife will become more tolerant of your building idea if she see's you suceed at earning our wings. Secondly, arrange for a trip to Rough River. Although I have never been myself know the people who attend and she will be surrounded by fine examples of builders, builders wives, and canard airplanes. She will be able to talk to other wives who - Used to feel the same way but now love the fact that they can go visit people here and there.

 

Sorry for the long post, but the reasoning I was reading in all those who responded was lacking experience. The exact reason you need to have the certificate first - to gain experience.

 

Again, don't do things like run out and buy the newest and badest equipment now because it may become obsolete by the time your airplane is finished. what will remain the same is the electrical system. BTW, if you haven't bought Bob Nuckolls book - The Aero Electric Connection - you need to and you'll be darn glads you did. Here is the web address;

 

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html

 

Any question

[Jon Matcho]

Dale, thanks for your thoughts on the topic. You make some excellent points, particularly with pointing out the medical issue and the areas of the plane where choices present themselves. On the other end of the spectrum, there are very few choices presented for the first few parts that you need to build with a Cozy or Long-EZ. "Just do it." For many parts and sub-assemblies you don't even need to know what an airplane is.

 

As a non-flying builder, without a CERTIFICATE, I have sadistically solicited feedback on this topic from several flyers and builder-flyers. Answers generally fall into these two categories:

• You are an idiot. Get your license (I can't tell you how many flyers use this term) and then I'll talk to you.

  - or -

• Sure, you can build first, but at some point near when you finish you'll need to get your certificate.

As Dan pointed out, it's a matter of building vs. flying (or building and/or flying). A particularly critical element on the path of building and flying a Rutan composite is to actually complete the build. I set aside $5,000 dollars to invest in a mission to build and fly my own aircraft, and my decision has been to build rather than "blow" it on lessons that will no doubt go stale and require maintenance to keep my skills up to par ("keeping current").

 

Dale, again, I agree w/many of your points and appreciate the input. The problem I have is where your words fall into the #1 category.

 

Finally, let's not forget the first non-certificated canard homebuilders, the Wright brothers... and they didn't even have plans!

[Norm M]

There was a manager at work that bought an Archer to learn how to fly in. He loved the plane and loved flying with an instructor. But he could never stomach flying by himself. He just could not overcome the fear of screwing up. Eventually, he ended up selling the plane.

 

If you are confident that flying is going to work for you, start building. But I would at least recommend that you take a couple lessons to see if you even like flying in small planes.

[niceez]

Jon,

 

I don't think your an idiot at all. Just lack experience. The first plane (a LEZ) I helped build at least 45% of it. Before it was finished I earned my Private Pilot certificate. The second LEZ I built (100% my work and 15 % help ) and turned out much better then the first and only because of the added knowledge. If your building it box stock then you are totally correct. But even though the design is still great, many things are becoming archaic. Which means you need to able to understand the "why" behind the the decision making process. Anyone can arrive at an answer - the question is; is it the right answer. We are blessed in this arena to be able to make the plane just the way we want it and trust me when I tell you that unless two people are trying to build them alike, they won't be. Never seen two alike yet. A good example is Mike Melvill's and Dick Rutan's LEZ. Built at the same time and both different with of what the builder thought he wanted for himself.

 

Someone ask our opinion - And I assume they will weigh the responses and decide for themselves. I was reading what I thought was a bunch of responses to justify NOT getting a certificate first and having done it both way's, I'll choose getting the ticket first. After all - I have the experience from both ways

 

We can only make decisions based on what we understand and know. But again building exactly to the plans will get you an airplane with or without a certificate.

 

Best of Luck and Blue Skies,

[Jon Matcho]

I don't think your an idiot at all.

I gathered as much. It's really just the feelings that get stirred in this gray area of advice.

 

Just lack experience.

Agreed and accepted.

 

But even though the design is still great, many things are becoming archaic.

For the benefit of readers of this discussion, now and in the future, could you elaborate on some of this? What are you talking about exactly? Avionics? Electrical system? Engine? Fuel system? Maybe this is another discussion, but I'm sure others would like to know your thoughts on what to improve, even considering they've "been there and done that".

 

My intention is to build a per-plans airframe, minimizing the obstacles of choices. When my options run out, I fully intend to get my PPC. This might be next year, the year after, etc., but will not be this year.

 

...building exactly to the plans...

Is that possible, or actually been done 100%?

 

Thanks!

[macleodm3]

Are there any builders out there that have never flown in a small airplane? I sure hope not. A couple of hours in a trainer is all anybody needs to know that they like (love) to fly and that they will be able to earn their certificate. Thats my situation... just under 30 hrs., no certificate yet. I will have one when I get back to lessons, but for now building is the main "obsession". It doesn't matter if its my few training hours, or Jon's trip to Sun-n-Fun with Marc... we both know we want our own airplane to fly. If you like to fly and believe you can do it... then its easy! I think I'll go take a lesson some time this fall, just for fun. I haven't been up in awhile, and it is a blast! If you're on this forum and haven't been in a small plane, well go get an intro lesson. Its funny how we all justify what we do isn't it? Thats part of what the forums are about.

[mtorzews]

I have only been in a small plane once. It was about 15 years ago. The plane had no paint, a vee tail, and had a top speed around 90 MPH. Not exactly Cozy like.

 

I don't need to fly in a small plane to know if I'll like it. I know myself. I know what I enjoy. I know that I would love flying a cozy.

 

I do plan to go up in Cessna a few times this year, but its not a big priority right now. I plan to begin flight training about 2 years before finishing the plane and train hard till I get a instrument rating.

[Jon Matcho]

Are there any builders out there that have never flown in a small airplane?

I forgot to mention that Chad Robinson at www.lucubration.com bought Cozy IV plans and began building without ever having flown in a small plane. Marc Zeitlin was able to save him from this situation with another gracious ride. Not counting my 45 minutes in a small plane prior, I made the same decision as Chad.

 

...Jon's trip to Sun-n-Fun with Marc...

I still can't believe I was in a Cozy for 12+ hours in just a few days. Lucky me for sure.

 

I plan to begin flight training about 2 years before finishing the plane and train hard till I get a instrument rating.

The 2-year part is my plan as well, but for whatever reason the IFR rating is daunting to me. I might want to pick that up after a year of VFR flying.

 

All things considered, that fact remains that we've decided to begin building ourselves some airplanes!

[douglasrfix]

I forgot to mention that Chad Robinson at www.lucubration.com bought Cozy IV plans and began building without ever having flown in a small plane. Marc Zeitlin was able to save him from this situation with another gracious ride. Not counting my 45 minutes in a small plane prior, I made the same decision as Chad.

I have now joined the club of never flown in a small aircraft and not a pilot but bought the plans (1343) anyway club.

[dgrobinson]

My other problem getting started in the build process is the wife. While she is very supportive in most things I do she thinks wanting to build my own plane is simply nuts. When I bring up the subject she lays the guilt trip on me about widowing her and my 4 and 5 year old. She came to Sun& Fun with me and did get to experience the same thing I did and she did seem to enjoy it, but she still is reluctant. So…..for you guys out there who faced similar resistance what tactics did you use to get the spouse on board?

 

Read "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch and check out the web site at Murray Bowen Center for some good info on marriage and life. My 5 second analysis of this is that she feels that her emotional needs are not being/will not be met.

 

I think it is a good thing for kids to see their parents setting reasonable goals, making rational plans and then working through the unforseen things. Prior planning can reduce, but not eliminate, the unforseen. There's a lot of information on the web and other people are doing this. This isn't like mountain climbing or some singular activity.

[macleodm3]

Well, I'm getting a little closer to not being a non-pilot builder.... I had my first solo yesterday evening. Wow! It really was just like lessons, except a little more relaxing than lessons (nobody looking over my shoulder).

 

My last solo landing was really fun... it was getting dark, and I keyed the mic three times for the runway lights. Wow, landing like that, solo, I'll never forget it.

 

Still on Chapter 6, but slowly getting closer to Chapter 7. I don't see how some of you guys cut all the fuselage bottom spacers out in an hour or two. It took me 4 hours to cut and sand and shape these till they fit good. Heck, it took me an hour or so just planning on how to cut them out and have enough foam!

 

Anyway, flying is fun in the 172, and in the spirit of this thread, I still think you should take at least one lesson before commiting to building a plane.... you might like it even more than you thought!

[emteeoh]

Well, I'm getting a little closer to not being a non-pilot builder.... I had my first solo yesterday evening. Wow! It really was just like lessons, except a little more relaxing than lessons (nobody looking over my shoulder).

 

My last solo landing was really fun... it was getting dark, and I keyed the mic three times for the runway lights. Wow, landing like that, solo, I'll never forget it.

 

Congratulations!

[mfryer]

Well, I'm getting a little closer to not being a non-pilot builder.... I had my first solo yesterday evening. Wow! It really was just like lessons, except a little more relaxing than lessons (nobody looking over my shoulder).

 

My last solo landing was really fun... it was getting dark, and I keyed the mic three times for the runway lights. Wow, landing like that, solo, I'll never forget it.

 

Congradulations! My first solo will always be a day I will never forget.