Best Practices

[douglasrfix]

During the recent adjustment of the hierarchy and its prelude, I was struck by dust's interest in turning the existing data into information (my words not his). I also found it interesting that he felt that he had reached the point where he would no longer be able to absorb any new information without old information being lost. After giving it more than a moments thought, I wish to purpose the following:

 

We, the Canard Community, should endevor to establish a set of best practices based upon the original plans, the offical updates, and the experience of the Canard Community at large.

 

The intent of a best practice would be to extend the evolution of the original plans beyond the current updates to the plans with the experience of the builder community. The value of the best pratice lies in establishing a baseline that can be used by the "newbie" to evaluate her/his own experiment in aircraft building without an exhaustive search of pre-existing newsletters, e-mail lists, forum postings, etc. I believe that this would allow dust to make his contribution in a place that will be permantly visible to the current and future generations of builders.

 

I will keep the rest of my musings to myself until I see some (if any) feedback on the purposal.

 

[John Slade]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

So... how do we implement such a scheme? Perhaps a "best practice" would be proposed, then rated by others. If it gets a high rating it gets in the list, otherwise not.

 

I'll discuss it with Jon at the Cozy dinner tonight.

I'd be interested in reading you're "other musings"

[douglasrfix]

I think a proposal would be a good starting point. This would in effect, be a call for contibutions. After the initial overwhelming flow diminishes, I would throw it open to a vote/rating. The intent would be to determine if the topic warrants an identification of a best practice and if so, what the practice is.

 

I would place them in a forum and thread dedicated to the purpose with the current best practices thread locked to avoid posting clutter. New poposals and suggested amendments would be discussed in a seperate threads and then placed in the best practices thread when an agreement has been reached.

[macleodm3]

This sounds like a good solution. I have no idea exactly how it should be accomplished, but let me know if you need any help (although I am not yet an experienced builder). The plans, this airplane, must continue to evolve. I can think of nothing better than this web based, readily accessible forum. If we all organize this correctly, and seperate the wheat from the chaff, then the way design changes are implemented would be changed forever. People will tend to refer to the most accessible source of info, such as this forum, and skip looking for info in their stack of newsletters.

[Wayne Hicks]

You guys want best practices?

 

In no particular order:

 

1. Read all the Canard Pushers (CPs) put out by Rutan Aircraft Factory. The CPs are chock full of goodies that are directly applicable to all canard aircraft, not just for Vari-Ezes and Long-EZs. My favorite place to find the CPs is the So-Cal EZ Squadron, www.ez.org.

 

2. Join the Central States Association and pay the bucks to acquire all the CSA back issues. The CSA is the only organization that still publishes technical newsletters for canards. CSA started publishing these newsletters to fill the void when RAF stopped publishing the CPs.

http://www.eracer.org/csa/csa.html

 

3. Order Debbie Iwate's book (I think it's Debbie Iwate, and I'm not sure I have the last name spelled correct either). She painstakingly tracked down and documented every known modification ever made to the Long EZ. Some mods are specific to the Long EZ and are not applicable to Cozies. BUT! The book is food for thought about good changes.

 

4. Read the back issues from the Cozy newsletters. You can access these from Marc Zeitlin's site. I admire Nat for documenting good, solid, practical do’s and don’ts to help guide his builders. You simply cannot go wrong following the plans.

 

5. Read the FAQs and the archived emails on Marc Zeitlin's site. These are by far and away where you’ll find the most comprehensive “best practices” anywhere for the Cozy. You don't to read them all at once, but make it a habit to review those emails for the chapter you're about to start.

 

6. Re-read the education section (Chapter 3) in the Cozy plans. It's amazing how many things are presented in that early chapter. I find it worthwhile to review that chapter at least twice a year.

 

7. Read the Cozy Builder websites. Most of us are now listing our lessons learned and our helpful hints. Most of us are very honest about saying what worked, what didn’t work, and what to avoid like the plague. But as with everything that’s driven by opinion, you must individually learn how to separate the wheat from the chafe. Don’t follow someone just because they take great pictures and are great with the King’s English.

 

8. Do not use this site as your only source of information. This is a new site and it will take a few years to reach the critical mass (history) developed by the areas I’ve listed above. This is NOT a slam on this site, to Jon Matcho, or to the people who participate here.

 

Guys, look. 99% of what you seek is already out there and has been out there for YEARS. It all depends on how hard you want to work to learn it. And I know fully well that some of you won’t like hearing that. Sorry.

 

 

====================

Wayne Hicks

Cozy IV Plans #678

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/waynehicks/index.html

[douglasrfix]

Wayne,

 

I have no quibble with anything that you said.

 

I expect that the base for most best practices would infact be the sources that you have identified, at least initially.

 

A CSA Subscription is on my list of todos as is the Rutan CD, which contains the Canard Pusher issues. I have read the information on Marc's site as well as anything else I can find on the Internet. Your post here is the first mention of Debbie's book that I remember seeing. This too goes on my list.

 

My interest here is to distill the data (opinion or otherwise) that is out there and turn it into information. My hope is to reduce the time spent searching and researching for the typical builder.

 

My other interest is to creat a the critical mass by producing a product with some added value. In this case it would be the combined analysis of the participants as well as convient access. The more that participate the higher quality product which one would hope produces more participation.

 

I am perfectly aware that the real goal for most of us here is to fly . That being the case, I am not suprised to see that websites come and go. Builders particpate on forums such as this and then drift away. It would be unreasonable to expect that you and Marc, Nat, Burt, et. al. will be active forever. A central repository is my attempt to preserve the knowledge. I hope it is an improvement over what has gone before.

 

That being said, it may also be true, that I am just trying to find a way to pass on what ever knowledge I gain from this experience to whatever future generations of builders there maybe.

 

Sorry about the spelling

[dust]

Wayne said

 

"Guys, look. 99% of what you seek is already out there and has been out there for YEARS. It all depends on how hard you want to work to learn it. And I know fully well that some of you won’t like hearing that. Sorry."

 

The 99% that is out there is in the plans and newsletters, 98% of the remaining 1% is on this forum.

 

No need, in my opinion, to bother with all the other, there are simply very few "tips and tricks"

 

douglasrfix said

 

"I also found it interesting that he felt that he had reached the point where he would no longer be able to absorb any new information without old information being lost."

 

Well this is correct, but i think in the wrong way. I have very, very good recall and by reading a few sentences of a thread in a few places i can remember the whole thread and wether it contained interesting info.

 

Now, my definition of interesting info is not wether there is a "tip or trick" in that particular thread, just would a "newby" read it and learn something that would put his mind to rest about the millions of doubts and questions that arrise in the pre and early build process, that can lead to not starting or finishing.

 

there are two misconceptions i try to get rid of

 

all kits are easier than all plans

 

there are hundreds of "tips and tricks" to find on building a cozy

 

I have not read anything of what was listed as required reading

I tried to get info from the archives on questions as they arrose, never found any, just allot of text.

 

The little info i got from the zetlin mail list was GREAT, but it was info that i got by reading every letter that came through and i stumbled on it.

 

Builders and flyers, twist your brains out and put these tips and tricks in the chapter specific sections, end of story, the area will stay small, cause there is not much to put in.

 

I don't trust that this forum will become what I envisioned it, I should have taken note when jon took over and pm'd me many things that both offended me and ran contrary to what i felt the purpose of the forum should be. MY MISTAKE. This is NOT my forum and I should have put my efforts elsewhere, if i wanted to create something to my specifications.

 

As it stands, it is just a little more than a chat room.

 

BTW, jon I think you may have thought that i was implying that your motives are not "right" because you ARE using your name.

 

If, you took my reason for ME using a nick name, as an insult in any way, please don't and accept my appology.

 

enjoy the build

 

dust

[douglasrfix]

The 99% that is out there is in the plans and newsletters, 98% of the remaining 1% is on this forum.

 

No need, in my opinion, to bother with all the other, there are simply very few "tips and tricks"

 

My personal issue is not the number to be found but the time spent to find them, especially if someone else has already found them. I'd rather spend my time building (I think).

 

Well this is correct, but i think in the wrong way. I have very, very good recall and by reading a few sentences of a thread in a few places i can remember the whole thread and wether it contained interesting info.

 

I too have very good recall. Unfortunately, I can't recall what I don't have. I have to rely on you for what you have. I am taking a shot at institutionalizing the knowledge.

 

Now, my definition of interesting info is not wether there is a "tip or trick" in that particular thread, just would a "newby" read it and learn something that would put his mind to rest about the millions of doubts and questions that arrise in the pre and early build process, that can lead to not starting or finishing.

 

I would hope that a concise best practices indication would help to reduce the doubt. I believe part of the doubt comes from the appearance of vast quantities of information available. This can certainly be cause for concern until the information is finally absorbed, thus eliminating the unknown.

 

The little info i got from the zetlin mail list was GREAT, but it was info that i got by reading every letter that came through and i stumbled on it.

 

I'm just trying to improve the odds of "stumbling". Some folks are better at stumbling than others.

 

I don't trust that this forum will become what I envisioned it, I should have taken note when jon took over and pm'd me many things that both offended me and ran contrary to what i felt the purpose of the forum should be. MY MISTAKE. This is NOT my forum and I should have put my efforts elsewhere, if i wanted to create something to my specifications.

 

As it stands, it is just a little more than a chat room.

 

I'm just taking my shot at making it a lot more than a chat room.

[dust]

That was my entire intent from the day i signed in.

 

The forum is as close to perfect for this accumulation as i can currently imagine. But it takes vision, content and supervision. If any one of those items are lacking, then it will fail.

 

I have been told by jon that i should not have had an agenda and that my agenda did NOT conform with his.

 

Unless you get some kind of statement of cooperation and support from Ungoli, I would not waste my time. I say Ungoli because this is his forum and he currently lets jon run it, but we know nothing of his future plans and decisions

 

enjoy the build

 

dust

[LargePrime]

I agree with much of the above. I too have looked at the above sources. I found alot of (no offence and mostly required) caff in the reading I have done.

 

Some of these sources have a cost that is hard to justify without really knowing the value before hand. Use of this information might require compensation.

 

That said, I think there would be a clear gain if we could distill all of the above into one referance document. The idea being it could point to sources for information relavant to the reader.

 

Even this forum could use a referance document. I dont think it would be a good idea to edit some of the posts here, but I think some of the information posted here would serve the readers better if it was edited. Controversal topics could have the best ideas, and counter points, of the sides presented. We could even request submissions on some matters.

 

Perhaps I present a rather big project. But we could start small. We could just do this site. Move on to something like the cozy list.

[marbleturtle]

The collection of all knowledge is a noble yet futile quest.

 

I submit that the true value of this forum is not as just another repository of information on canard aircraft, but a support group for those who face the daily challenges of a difficult task... yes, for lack of a more profound description, a "chat room." A place where builders can communicate with other builders and receive up to date information and encouragement.

 

As for simplifying the task of research... anyone without the dedication to seek out all available information regardless of source will and should fail. Its beneficial to the homebuilt aircraft community that only motivated hard-working individuals take to the skies as our ambassadors.

[douglasrfix]

I submit that the true value of this forum is not as just another repository of information on canard aircraft, but a support group for those who face the daily challenges of a difficult task... yes, for lack of a more profound description, a "chat room." A place where builders can communicate with other builders and receive up to date information and encouragement.

 

I assume that even with a distillation of the available knowledge, what ever that might include, a concise document is still just a base from which to expand the conversation. It has been my experience that there will always be more questions asked than can be answered with any given level of resource commitment. The "chat room" will always be the place where the "global brainstorming" will occur, and is therefore an essential and permanent feature of our landscape.

As for simplifying the task of research... anyone without the dedication to seek out all available information regardless of source will and should fail. Its beneficial to the homebuilt aircraft community that only motivated hard-working individuals take to the skies as our ambassadors.

Unless the builder is wealthy and retired, resources will be constrained. Those may be financial, the available hours in a day, relative proficiency in various skills required to complete an aircraft building project, etc. I hope that I don't need to seek out much in the way of aeronautical engineering to complete my project else I will never even get started with the building.

 

We already rely on Nat's compilation of knowledge as he relied on Burt's. Taking advantage of that compilation is why we are able to attempt this project at all. Someone with out the work ethic and motivation will never make it through 2,500 hours of construction. I merely hope to improve the quality of the end result and the enjoyment of the process. Each will persue their own path, I am just trying to remove some stones.

[douglasrfix]

Some of these sources have a cost that is hard to justify without really knowing the value before hand. Use of this information might require compensation.

I suspect that the pearls of wisdom that can be gained from most commercial sources are sufficiently general that copyright appropriate attributions and limited quotes will avoid any legal issues. How legal access is gained is, as you suggest, a different matter. On the other hand, our use of this host is a donation from someone, it may be that others with access to the commercial sources will be so benevolent.

 

The whole issue of who pays for what and how in this sort of collabrative model is a very real problem, probably best treated in a seperate thread in a different forum.

Even this forum could use a referance document. I dont think it would be a good idea to edit some of the posts here, but I think some of the information posted here would serve the readers better if it was edited. Controversal topics could have the best ideas, and counter points, of the sides presented. We could even request submissions on some matters.

I wouldn't even suggest editing of any post for any reason. I imagine that a summary of the thread(s) would be the goal, with appropriate attribution.

Perhaps I present a rather big project. But we could start small. We could just do this site. Move on to something like the cozy list.

First step and all that.

[cncdoc]

Hmmm, this is rather interesting.

 

I think it's good to see someone interested in putting an inflow of information in a searchable repository. I do that every time a put a file in my file cabinet. But I had to organize it first. I had to label it so that when I got more information, I had a pre-determined place for it. If I had too much information in one file I had to sort it and label it again in sub-catagories. My system works because the inflow is steady and predictable.

The inflow of information on this site is sporadic and "liquid". It is a difficult task to "label" each new "file" of information we want to keep for future reference. Dust's method of tagging each "file" of notable interest is crude but effective. However, it would require organization and more labels. I think that with the brain power we have here on the forum we could think of a workable idea to use the data on hand while funneling new info into the proper searchable format.

I appreciate Mr. Hicks thoughts..(but,

where's the fun in reading all that stuff?: ) for basic build and design features I agree. But obtaining and perusing the data can be time consuming and frustrating (a peek is worth a thousand scans...) knowing someone who knows the answers is better than having the books..if you're in a hurry. If you're waiting for something, then you may have time for research and documentation.

I like the idea of asking questions and getting different answers, conservative, liberal, speculative and literal. When building an airplane from plans, people (men generally, but women tend to have similar thought patterns) generally take care in each step and most have a fervent desire to have full knowledge of the next step. This process involves more than simple curiousity. It encompasses an effort to sweep all available resources to obtain a satisfying answer, an answer such an individual can live with. Ultimately, we choose which answer we accept and which we reject. But who would go to a car dealer who only sold black or white cars? (Unless you're a State Police vehicle buyer). In some cases there is a black or white answer. But this is Experimental Aircraft building. We all know what that means. We experiment with design, methods, and materials. We don't experiment with life. So there is a line. The purpose of this forum should not be limited to data storage and collating, but should be allowed to include real time exploratory discussion and discovery while keeping in focus the goals of the individual builders. We are, after all, human. I enjoy the human aspect of it. For instance: Who didn't enjoy reading John Slade's account of first flight. It was a 5 star rated thread. The actual data value was very small as it was a personal depiction of operation. The actions were not able to be duplicated by others. But I would have scalped somebody if they removed the thread for lack of building value .

I don't think hard and fast rules are going to get us anywhere. This forum is undergoing constant evolution. I think it's good to try to sort out the "best practices". It would have to be from those who have tried at least one way of doing it (plans verbatum). To have the opinion of those who are inexperienced would be tentamount to 6 year old kids voting on the best way to procreate.

Therefore, I would urge all of us to contemplate the purpose of each post. A post with obvious practical value for fellow builders should be noted by SOMEBODY for future readers either by the one posting or the reply poster or by someone who realizes the answer is a "keeper".....

We have come such a long way in both aircraft building and design and inter-builder communication. Things are changing constantly as to equipment and technology. This is a good place to keep up. If we do it right, this forum can be both fun and informational. There is such a thing as a "tool" that can be fun right?? (or is that another thread....or forum??)

That's my humble opinion .......

 

"Doctor" Kevin.

[rmaddy]

Just curious but are you looking for something like http://www.maddyhome.com/cozy/tips but on a grander scale?

[LargePrime]

maddy:

Thats exackly what i was thinking of.

 

As the "grandness" increases I see it as less a detailing of the information directly and more about a brief summary and a pointer to the comprenhisive information.

 

Any published document will always lag state of the art. The power of the published doc is to spend less time rehashing the known and more time exploring the new.

 

It will provide a foundation of knowledge for our discussions.

[mplafleur]

I'd like this site to HELP the community build and finish their Cozy or any other canard, not DETER them.

 

Suggesting they have to go elsewhere and read all the archived e-mails, old newsletters, Rutan's CPs, books and God knows what is not going where I think this site oughta go.

 

We should be a support group AND a source of helpful information and advice from those who have done it. I could go on but I'm hungry and I think you know where I'm going with this...

 

And yes, I know I haven't started my own bird yet, but I have a certificate somewhere.

[LargePrime]

I think the biggest reason I am building this plane is the community. No document anywhere will ever replace talking stuff over with someone.

 

I dont think the suggeston is we should change this site or any other source. Each of them is what they is: thats not going to change.

 

But there are some great ideas and questions woven in amongst all the other things in every one of our information sources. Some sources are just a great idea like bobs book at aeroelectric.com are a must read for your electrical system. I think there some Extreamly hi quality info we should know that is hard to tie in.

 

The real question is

"Is there a better way to GET TO our good ideas and time proven techniques?"

 

We are kicking around ideas for a "Cozy Bible", the "mother of all CSA" news letters, or perhaps a "canard pusher on crystal meth".

 

Or I am waaaaaaay off...

[Jon Matcho]

Interesting path of discussion here, starting with a genuine desire to index all things Cozy, then taking a detour into parts unknown, and now landing with the realization that this would be quite an undertaking. Maybe someone should write a book?

 

As far as undertaking a Best Practices project, it has my support as much as the other FAQs and Tips that are out there, along with Wayne Hicks' excellent list of references in this thread. At the end of the day, there is no single source of information for which you can receive a list of ALL questions with ALL possible answers. You will have to work at it some.

 

To put this in perspective, realize that Long-EZs (the basis of the Cozy) were once being built at an active pace, relying only on periodic newsletters and phone support, and years before browsing the World Wide Web was an option. Relatively speaking, the information is already at our fingertips.

 

 

As it stands, it is just a little more than a chat room.

I submit that the true value of this forum is not as just another repository of information on canard aircraft, but a support group for those who face the daily challenges of a difficult task... yes, for lack of a more profound description, a "chat room."

The "chat room"...

Please let us not refer to this site as a chat room. We have a section named "chat room" with a chat software to offload the "noise" from the threads. There is even an interface to Instant Messaging tools for those wanting to exchange text messages real-time with others. These forums are to help those building canards using Rutan-based composite construction techniques by providing an online community similar to the e-mail-based discussion available at www.cozybuilders.org.

 

 

I would urge all of us to contemplate the purpose of each post. A post with obvious practical value for fellow builders should be noted by SOMEBODY for future readers either by the one posting or the reply poster or by someone who realizes the answer is a "keeper".....

An excellent guideline! Think before you post. Try to provide value, because we, the membership, want value. Everyone, feel free to rate any thread you read. One vote per member is recorded, and you can change your vote as the thread evolves.

 

 

I say Ungoli because this is his forum and he currently lets jon run it, but we know nothing of his future plans and decisions

On the other hand, our use of this host is a donation from someone, it may be that others with access to the commercial sources will be so benevolent. The whole issue of who pays for what and how in this sort of collabrative model is a very real problem, probably best treated in a seperate thread in a different forum.

I want to clear up what might be some confusion. Nick Ugolini came up with the idea for these forums, and put them in place with John Slade's help and support. Nick has since turned over forum ownership and responsibility to me. Nick Ugolini, John Slade, and Marc Zeitlin continue to serve as "backup administrators" and subject matter experts.

 

I have put in a considerable amount of time and money towards improving the structure and capability of these forums, and I do appreciate the words of encouragement passed along. I feel that the forum now has good structure and functionality, which will prove useful for those considering to build or are now moving down the path of actually building.

 

This site may not meet everyone's vision, but I think it is working just fine as a meeting place and knowledge repository for the likes of us. If there's anything in particular that can be done to improve this site, please feel free to let me know.

[dust]

Jon Macho said

 

"Nick has since turned over forum ownership and responsibility to me."

 

It would have been very nice to know this when you took it over, that way I would have taken to heart the things you pm'd and not considerred them as near worthless insults coming from a voluntary admin.

 

I would have taken them for what there were meant for.

 

enjoy the build

 

dust

[LargePrime]

Unbelivable

 

I left this place for a long time because you are such a jackass Jon.

 

I came back because I was told you had been reigned in.

 

Now I here your the BOSS?

 

No wonder there are less and less posts. No wonder the great people are being driven away.

 

You have neither the social skills or the knowledge base to do this well.

It will limp along a shadow of what it could have been, mostly, because your in charge.

[John Slade]

Jon Macho said

 

"Nick has since turned over forum ownership and responsibility to me."

 

Now that's something I didn't know

[Jon Matcho]

It would have been very nice to know this when you took it over...

Now that's something I didn't know

Perhaps a bit more ceremony would have been appropriate, but I thought this was well understood by everyone. Sorry for any confusion.

 

 

I left this place for a long time because you are such a jackass Jon.

 

I came back because I was told you had been reigned in.

Let's understand the variable here: LargePrime left. With everyone being polite and allowing the forum to grow, we actually managed to take a step forward.

 

 

You have neither the social skills or the knowledge base to do this well.

We all can work to improve our social skills, including myself without exception. As far as your own social skills go, if you had made such an offensive remark to anyone else here on this forum, I'd be left with few choices, including consideration to ban your account. You have done this before to others, and have been asked nicely to refrain from your offensive posts. Please stop, for everyone's sake.

 

As far as my knowledge base, I do know one thing about building a Cozy (just one, so have not yet decided to use my knowledge up yet). Regardless, take a look at my posts to date -- dealing mainly with the forum software itself. I do NOT claim to know any more than the next newbie reading stuff here or on the Internet. I leave the experts to that and look forward to their replies.

 

In terms of my software base of knowledge, I am qualified. I was chosen by Nick for my knowledge and experience with implementing Web-based discussion groups. For most members, this has proven beneficial with an improved forum setup.

 

I'm sure we'll all be better for it if we can hit the reset button on all of this and continue onward building our planes. This is a Discussion Forum for ALL planners, builders, and flyers to participate in.

[Wayne Hicks]

Doesn't this forum have some type of PRIVATE MESSAGING for this kind of crap?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the PISSING contest, the name calling, the utter disregard for respect, the virtual BOXING RING complete with electronic ROPE-A-DOPE.

 

But I ask....how is all this going to attract new builders???

 

Take it off line!!! Bandwidth is a precious thing.

 

....Wayne Hicks

[unick3]

Hi all,

 

When I started this forum I found it to be unbelievably taxing and stressful. Such a simple idea, so hard to implement. The difficulty came from coordinating with Nat, getting permissions to use the Cozy web site resources, learning the software, etc. After a while things smoothed out and then it happened all over again with the sale of the Cozy concept to ACS. Frankly, I burned out.

 

When Jon approached me about hosting the website, upgrading the software and making significant improvements to the site at his own time and expense I was all for it. I am sure EVERYONE has noticed the tremendous response speed and virtually no down time lately. This is because Jon has put the forum on his dedicated server and has personally paid for the software upgraded. Jon should be commended on all the effort he has put into this site. In all respects, I feel Jon now the... for lack of a better term, owner, senior administrator, guru, head honcho, …whatever of this site. Jon and I still talk about improvements, discuss issues, offer advice, etc, but he has the final say.

 

What does trouble me in reading some of the posts is from time to time the lack of respect some on this forum show each other. We are ALL builders, we are or should be friends, and we are in this together for the long haul. We should be respectful of each other. I don’t like or support the idea of editing posts, but I am all in favor of removing the privilege of posting on this forum. None of us would willing spend time with a person in social setting who is unable to show respect for others and it is no different on this forum. Jon and I will continue to discuss this issue and try to decide on how to handle this situation in the future.

 

Overall, I am very pleased with the new look, feel and responsiveness of this site. Jon and I have talked about other ways to improve this resource such as a link page and a free web page hosting area. More to come….