Instrument Preferences

[Joe Patterson]

I am quite glad, You found the problem in time........My responce to your post was meant in good humor as well. I hope you took it as such.

 

About your Cranky Problem, ...PERHAPS>>>>>>>>>IF YOU WOULD HAVE DONE MORE PLANNING BEFORE BUILDING>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Groovy Hipster

[John Slade]

Joe,

Before I make further comments on you're panel design, let me confess how mine came about...

It evolved. I obtained stuff as opportunity and funds allowed. As each panel item arrived I found a home for it. There was a basic plan, but I just couldn't see (or afford) planning the complete panel and installing it as planned. At least for me, things just dont happen that way. My take is that the first panel was a "throw away". A walnut throw away, perhaps, but still disposable. Later when funds allow and I know better what I want, I'll probably redo the whole panel in one go. I know you're just passing time prior to getting into the build, and panel planning is a valid exercise, but I'd suggest that you remain flexible on the issues until the last possible moment, then consider the options available to you then.

 

Here's a picture of my panel before I added the Tach just above the roll trim and before I cleaned up the labelling. http://kgarden.com/cozy/cz803.jpg

I still have a volt meter to put somewhere. You'd be amazed at how many items seem to appear out of nowhere and need panel space, especially if you have an automotive engine. I'm not saying mine is the perfect panel by any means, just providing it as an ugly example of what can happen when reality sets in.

 

Anyway, back to you're revised panel:

You might consider putting the master switch where I did, off to the left. You dont want anybody else reaching the master, and this location would free up space to have you're second CDI below the first. This can be handy when you're tracking an intersection in IFR and waiting for a needle to swing. By the way, what are the white switches next to the red master/alt switch? You'll find that Bob Nuckolls advises against having a key or a split master. I disagree with him there and fitted them anyway.

 

If that's the full panel size, which I think it is, you'll loose the top 3/4 inch or so to some sort of glare shield if you make anything at all like my panel cover. This means you're switches on the left will need to move. Personally I like them in a line.

 

Normal convention is flight guages on the left, engine stuff on the right. There's good reason for this, but we've talked about scans. Lets not go there again. As you see, I squeezed the compass in on the left side near the vent.

 

I see you have digital engine gauges. I chose analog because I take in analog data more easily than digital.

 

ADF is becoming less and less useful. I'm not sure it deserves the weight and real estate. There are a couple of items I dont recognise. What's that below the compass?

 

Hope this helps.

[Joe Patterson]

".

John Slade wrote:

I'm not saying mine is the perfect panel by any means, just providing it as an ugly example of what can happen when reality sets in.

 

John,

BS>>>>>>>>That is a FANTASTIC LOOKING Panel......In No way is that UGLY

 

1.) Things will change, we will be prepared for this, IN FACT we will plan for this.

 

2.) We both prefer Analog Gauges. The basic layout will stay the same, who will be the manufacturer, is still to be determined.

 

3.) Normal convention is flight guages on the left, engine stuff on the right.(Note: Joe is no where near Normal, nor does he want a Normal Dream Machine) Every plane I have flown in, makes it too difficult to keep an eye on the gauges.....I hate this.

 

4.) I want to be able to start the plane from the right seat. I have become very comfortable flying from there. My Girl-Friend and I fly together often, and we take turns sitting on the left. No one will TOUCH the master. besides My job as PIC is too be aware of everything that goes on in my Plane..........And I am "By the Book

 

John Slade wrote:

ADF is becoming less and less useful. I'm not sure it deserves the weight and real estate. There are a couple of items I dont recognise.

 

5.) I have just began my IFR training, and do not know enough about what I will want, except I DO NOT WANT JUST THE MINIMAL. I am making sure the Space is there.

 

What's that below the compass?

6.) Slip indicator for the Right seat pilot. Again, My Girl-Friend-Pilot and I swap off flying from both seats. If you haven't become proficient from the Right ..I would suggest it to ALL Pilots.

 

7.) The switches on the left will be on a raised Panel of their own. I didn't worry with showing this "Customized Part of the Panel..........CURVES ARE SEXIER:cool:

 

8.) The white switches shown in the above mentioned JPG are Extra switches, Possibly booster pumps, and the space for them....Seems I read somewhere, "Run Extra Wire, and have room for extra swithes"

 

You have been most helpful...Thank you for taking the time to look over, and respond. And, also Thanks for being Honest.

 

Care for the Trees and the Earth as a THOU, instead of as an IT .....

[Joe Patterson]

In the November 2003 Issue of "Sport Avition Magazine" was an article on Custom Built Panels......... The "CURVES" of the Switch Panel" is what I fell in love with.

 

This is the direction I would like to take my panel.

 

See Picture below:

[martinkh]

It's been a year, where is the plane?

[deronjthomas]

I would consider building a computer for $400 to $500, and then buy a 14” LCD screen to surface mount it. Then you can use a Microsoft Wireless mouse/track ball and keyboard. Then you can have your laptop as a backup unit. On the other hand, you can mount the 14” LCD screen, and plug your laptop in it.

[Nathan Gifford]

...Speaking of instruments etc. I just ordered a Brother 1500PC printer with white on clear tape to redo all my panel labels. The Dyno tapes are starting to look a bit tacky...

BTW, Dyno makes a really neat printer (Rhino). The are probably better panel printers, but this little printer makes some of the neatest wire labels. They really stay stuck, durable, legible and are available up to 3/4".

[martinkh]

One option is to have an aluminum blank cut out to hold your instruments, then take it and a template with the exact positions of all the words (maybe an autocad drawing that has the holes and the words in relation) to an anodizer. You could have the lettering anodized on. It would be pretty trick.

[deronjthomas]

This can all be found at www.Newegg.com

 

$157.50 EverCase Black 1U Server Rackmount Chassis, Model "R9138B-T30"

Form Factor: 1U Chassis - ATX or Micto ATX up to 12" x 10.5"

2 x 3.5 HD mount

Dimensions: 1.72" x 17.48" x 16.5" (HxWxD)

$ 56.00 Intel "D845GVFNL" i845GV chipset

FSB 400/533MHz

2 x 184-pin Dimm DDR 266/333 2GB max

3 PCI

2 x ATA100 IDE Connectors up to 4 IDE deviced

1 x VGA

2 USB 2.0/1.1

Dimensions: 9.6" x 9.6"

$127.49 Intel P4 2.26GHz; FSB 533MHz 512k Cash - Retail

$ 61.00 Western Digital 80GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model WD800BB, OEM

$ 22.00 LG Electronice 16X DVD-ROM GRD-8163B, OEM

$ 46.67 Corsair Value Select 512MB DDR PC-2700

---.--

$470.66

 

Optional Add-On

$ 25.49 5.25" USB 2.0 HHD/CD-ROM Drive Encloser, Model: SD-U2DEL

With this you can mount the DVD drive in the Dash away from

the computer. If you get a 2nd LCD & a spair Viedo Card you

and then watch movies. You can put a splitter on it and put a

3rd in the back.

$269.00 SAMSUNG 710N-Black 17" LCD Monitor -RETAIL

$ 24.95 Logitech Cordless Internet Pro Desktop-PEM Keyboard/Mouse

$???.?? GPS USB

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Len Evansic]

1U is kind of big. Unnecessarily so. 19" wide on the front face x 1.75" high.

 

Not that I'd use either, you could use a PC104 with a solid-state drive, or a Mac mini, which is far more capable than the machine you specified, but the same price and much smaller. The PC104 would be smaller, more expensive and less powerful in the end, but it would be easily configureable to take a myriad of inputs to control or monitor just about anything you could throw at it, owing to it's embedded industrial upbringing. I threw in the Mac mini because it could handle the interfacing aspects just as well if you were willing to put in the time.

 

-- Len

[deronjthomas]

levansic

That is a good point. It is kind of wide, but it is thin. It's probaly small enough to fin under the seat. Their are other thin cases out their, that are not as wide. I just did not have time to look for it, and you could always make your own case.

 

Mac is a good computer, but most of the software runs on Windows 2000/XP Pro. Pluss a 2.26GHz sould be fast enugh. It's not like your going to be doing Hi end C.A.D work or wrighting music on it. It just need to be fast enough to give you your map, and monitor all your devices. Pluss if the CPU frys on you it is much easer to find replacement parts.

 

If you whonted to go crasy on it. For $1,200 you can build ont that has 2gig of ram, and 3.6GHz CPU in it, and a 250 to 300Gig HD. But that would be over kill.

 

I hate to brake it to the MAC lovers out their, but Windows XP Pro is a good OS. "Operating System". But I would rather go with a Linux OS, and I don't think their is anything out their for it. If their is Please let me know. You realy can't get any more stable then Linux. Mac/Windows can't run for 2years with out rebooting. Can it?

 

And yes I do tech support, and yes I am a Geek.

[CBarber]

and yes I am a Geek.

 

Yeah, my worthy brother. Be proud.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[deronjthomas]

Just looking to anyone’s opinion about this "Dynon Avionics", or any other integrated product. The price is right, but I don’t know about the reliability.http://dynonavionics.com/index.html.

 

It has intigrated in it:

Airspeed Tape

Digital Airspeed

Bank Angle

Turn Rate Indicator

Magnetic Heading

Altitude Tape

Angle of Attack Tape

Barometric Settings

Clock & up/down timer

Softkey Menu Buttons

Slip/Skid Ball

Artificial Horizon

Options:

Internal Backup Battery

Remote Compass, EDC-10A

Flush Mount Bracket

Unheated Pitot

Outside Air Temperature Probe, OAT

Encoder Converter

Wiring Harness

 

Price with options: $2,788

 

Upcoming Products:

7" Multifunctional Display (MFD)

Autopilot

GPS/Navigation

 

[Waiter]

I've seen them and was impressed. I am installing the EFIS and the EMS.

 

I was VERY impressed with the EMS-10, the package deal comes with all the sensors, and prewired connectors.

 

I'll have no guages in my instrument panel, only these two displays and the Auto pilot gyro.

 

You can see the "bare" panel to get an idea of size on my web site. Scroll down to 5 june 2005

 

www.iflyez.com

 

Waiter

 

Waiter

[CFernandez]

Just looking to anyone’s opinion about this "Dynon Avionics", or any other integrated product. The price is right, but I don’t know about the reliability.http://dynonavionics.com/index.html.

 

Our chapter (EAA221) had Grand Rapids Technologies in for a talk last fall and they seem to have a great deal of knowledge on PFD/MFD's. Their website is www.grtavionics.com

 

If I remember correctly the difference is where the PFD gets its information from, that being the gps position or an AHRS. GRTAvionics uses an AHRS where Dynon uses GPS signals. If you want to know more go to their website(GRTAvionics.com) and look for how they have their system setup.

 

Either way look at them all and choose what's right for your installation. If I needed instrumentation now I would seriously consider the PFD/MFD package from Grand Rapids Technologies. My 2 cents...

 

Carlos Fernandez

AeroCanard FG #206

Chp. 4, 5, 10

[Jon Matcho]

This discussion forced me to remember the ad I saw in the back of the July 2005 Kitplane for this product. It looks to be just over $2,000 as well, but only in LCD black & white:

 

 

The display area (not including the buttons) is 4.75" x 3.6". Color would be nice, and given the size of this thing, I wonder if their EMS product would be the only one worth considering. Still, looks like a capable unit at first glance.

[karoliina]

I think the money would be better used for Dynon D10A EFIS and to

the EMS-10 engine monitoring system than to this Stratomaster.

I at least, wouldn't take any hard to read black & white screens

to my airplane if there is an option to have a EFIS system

with daylight readable screen. We have in our airplane a Bendix King

Skyforce II moving map GPS and it is greatly inferior to the colour

version, its readability sucks on direct sunlight whereas the colour

Skyforce IIIc with the sunlight readable colour screen is readable

in any condition, sunglasses on or off, and in addition to that

looks so much cooler too. The reason we have Skyforce II and not IIIc

is that the Skyforce II came with the plane which we bought as used

and even B&W GPS is better than no GPS. One friend of ours

have seen Dynon on real life and according to him it is really good.

He will install it on his aircraft and propably we will do that too, allthough

because of the price we have to wait a bit longer than with some

cheaper system, but I have always thought that better to get

a good system once than buy multiple inferior systems before going

to the system you need and because of that I think I have saved

quite many euros during the years, i.e. in a unrelated thing, with

home theater equipment, it seems that it was a good idea to buy

a top-of-the-line model instead of buying multiple cheap models

and being dissapointed to them all - I paid only once the grand price

instead of ending up paying more with smaller prices per unit multiple times.

I joined the Dynon Avionics forums and asked for some SW improvements

for the European users (e.g. to support metric system) and their response

speed was excellent and instead of saying "no no" they promised to

do them. I am quite convinced that Dynon is the way to go,

they have quality products with price I can imagine to pay sometime,

not too unreasonable. I am not getting BlueMountainAvionics EFIS-1 anyway since that has a cost I can not deal with the foreseeable future.

[Snoopy]

Does anyone have any experience with the Blue Mountain EFIS/Lite ? It seems like a nice unit with ADI, HSI, and moving map screens with a built in GPS.

[PaulL]

I have the Dynon EFIS-D10 now flying for over a year and have no glitches with it. Easy daylight readable, etc. and fly by it exclusively. I do have a standard attitude, altimeter and speed indicator as backup which always agree with the Dynon. The only thing not working for me yet is the magnetic heading (internal magnetometer). I tried calibrating it once and did not succeed - will try again someday. In the meantime I use the GPS heading (most often) or the magnetic compass (seldom).

 

Just looking to anyone’s opinion about this "Dynon Avionics", or any other integrated product. The price is right, but I don’t know about the reliability.http://dynonavionics.com/index.html.

 

It has intigrated in it:

Airspeed Tape

Digital Airspeed

Bank Angle

Turn Rate Indicator

Magnetic Heading

Altitude Tape

Angle of Attack Tape

Barometric Settings

Clock & up/down timer

Softkey Menu Buttons

Slip/Skid Ball

Artificial Horizon

Options:

Internal Backup Battery

Remote Compass, EDC-10A

Flush Mount Bracket

Unheated Pitot

Outside Air Temperature Probe, OAT

Encoder Converter

Wiring Harness

 

Price with options: $2,788

 

Upcoming Products:

7" Multifunctional Display (MFD)

Autopilot

GPS/Navigation

 

[deronjthomas]

I have the Dynon EFIS-D10 now flying for over a year and have no glitches with it. Easy daylight readable, etc. and fly by it exclusively. I do have a standard attitude, altimeter and speed indicator as backup which always agree with the Dynon. The only thing not working for me yet is the magnetic heading (internal magnetometer). I tried calibrating it once and did not succeed - will try again someday. In the meantime I use the GPS heading (most often) or the magnetic compass (seldom).

Thanks for the information on the Dynon... I was wondering how well it faired in the sunlight. That would probably be the biggest deciding factor in using the Dynon or not. If you can’t see it what good is it.

 

It will be about 3 years before I'll be able to start building my canard. I don't think it is too early to research everything you need. Seeing how avionics are about 1/3 rd of the cost.

[interestedbutconfuse]

Only 1/3??? You just aren't planning on enough toys!

I figure between the engine/propellor and avionics, the airframe is virtually free!

Mark

[deronjthomas]

The only thing not working for me yet is the magnetic heading (internal magnetometer). I tried calibrating it once and did not succeed - will try again someday. In the meantime I use the GPS heading (most often) or the magnetic compass (seldom).

Hey PaulL,

The only thing that I could think of is that their may be a magnetic field that is too close to the Dynon. You could use a hand held compass to see where it is coming from, or I’m sure that Radio Shack has some sort a meter that you could use.

[Jon Matcho]

It will be about 3 years before I'll be able to start building my canard. I don't think it is too early to research everything you need.

Something to keep in mind is that you're many years away from putting any sort of avionics into an airplane. By then we should have wearable heads up displays for homebuilts on the market.

 

Seeing how avionics are about 1/3 rd of the cost.

Only 1/3??? You just aren't planning on enough toys! I figure between the engine/propellor and avionics, the airframe is virtually free!

I think the general guideline of thirds still holds today:

• airframe
• avionics
• powerplant

The question really is, "how much does each third cost?" I think the metric at one point was $15,000. Using today's prices, it's probably more accurate to think closer to $20-$25,000. The cost of the airframe is rather predictable, unless you consider picking up an abandoned project or using prefab parts from AeroCad. Avionics do not *need* to be anywhere near $15,000-$25,000, as a basic VFR panel would be much less. Still, many feel a genetic need to have a double-glass panel.

 

For the next few years, I'm only concerned with the airframe third, and expect prices on avionics to drop or, at worst, stay the same. Don't spend your money before you need to.

[Nathan Gifford]

Depending on how nasty a hurricane season we have, there may be quite a few salvaged equipment available.

 

If you are not going with cutting edge avionics, you can install everything for quite a bit less than $15K.

 

Also if you think spending a 1/3 of the construction on avionics is too much, build something more expensive and drive down that percentage some more. A Cozy is a rather cheap animal to build.

[argoldman]

Hold it there!!!!

 

 

Don't purchase any avionics or engine instruments until one of two things happen.

 

1-- you can absolutely steal them

 

2-- you absolutely can go no further in your construction until you have them.

 

These items, like most things electronic are going through an increasingly accelerating technology explosion. your project will take much longer than the time necessary for what is available now to bedome obsolete (sometimes a matter of months). I just hard that Garmin came out with a new handheld, I think it is called the 396 which has terraine warning, weather etc etc. My guess is that it will sell for under 2K as did the previously offered ones. Imagine your chagrin after purchasing a 296, and before you get it out of the box, learning about the availability this new one.

 

It will probably be at OSH to take a look at.

 

Knowing, or not knowing, what is in store, what I am going to do is desgn the instrument panel so that it is structurally sound with removable panels, probably aluminum that I can modify and install at the last moment. This will also enable me to update the panel if desired, and to do any repairs without major contortions.

 

For VFR flying, and most of IFR, OMNI is obsolete (or rapidly becoming) now as is ADF, as is LORAN as is DME, as will be the older style ELT,

 

Hold off on electronics, eingines and props as long as possible.

 

Most of your wiring will be local for the electronics so you don't really have to plan ahead. that much. The cozy has some nice wiring conduits from the firewall, which should be easy to use.

 

In the building of my dragonfly, in my haste to get the "Latest" electronics, before I needed them, I bought a Garmin 612, loran, which I then had modified into a 618, only to find that when it came time to install it, Loran had all but died and GPS was the rage. I then got the GX55 (I think), which was tray and mostly plug compatable with the 618. For the $ that I spent on the original, and the modification-- to find that the market value for it was practically nill, plus the new 55 (now practically obsolete), had I waited, I could have had an incredibly more sophisticated setup. (or be less poor).

 

Again if you can steal these devices, the story changes, if you are willing to put them in you plane.