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Instrument Preferences


Joe Patterson

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Coming up with Instruments for My own Build, is an overwhelming persuit. I want to get good equipment, and it would be nice if It could look SEXY.(Hhhhmmmmm.but not Pink, or maybe so)

 

I have plenty of time, before I will need to install any, so this gives me time to listen to others, and gain some valuable insight.

 

One of my first thoughts, as an Automobile Lover, is why don't I use some of the latest "Hot-Rod", gauges. There are some very snazzy looking ones. I know the Hot -rod industry has some really high performance Equipment and monitoring devices/gauges.

 

Any one ever thought about using , or used performance auto gauges?

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

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There seems to be at least "Two Schools Of Thought", about when to ask questions about (research) something.

 

1.) I have noticed a lot of the builders say..."Don't read ahead", "Just start building from page one", "You can change stuff later." (Personality type A)-It may be too overwhelming for this person to plan ahead, and it may cause him to not build.

 

2.) Other builders (myself included) say.... "I could never start on page one building until I have read Chapter 26", "You shouldn't build the fuselage until you know if your canopy will open forward or to the side", You should look a Cozy over very carefully, taking measurements, and pictures, before starting you build".(personality type B) It may be that this person has too much fear of the unknown, and will not build without what he considers "Proper Preparation".

 

The second (#2 Type B) is me, without a doubt. I may change things later, but I may opperate a little different than someone else. A whole lot of the work has been done for me, in the "Cozy Plans/ Materials List", but I really see some potential problems ahead, if I do not work out a few kinks.

 

There is no correct Personality, just at least the two ways of looking at things...........So Please, Help A Brother out, be up front with your opinions, Now. For me Later will be too Late.

 

 

enjoy........everything

Joe:cool:

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

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Well said, I started the thread "modifications" just for people like rising to see how little MOST people deviate from the plans.

 

On the canopy, that chapter is a loooooong way away, you may or may not still be motivated to change it, it don't matter at this time.

 

As you know, slade is the read ahead kind, i am not, it doesn't matter, just don't let it stop you from building, be part of the 20%

 

enjoy the build

 

Dust

maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

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>As you know, slade is the read ahead kind...

I'm not sure where you got that, Dust. I'm more of the "bull at a gate" type. I'd prefer to think of my approach as closer to a "Mr. Spock" thing. If the information is relevant to the decision I'm making today, then I want it. If it cannot impact me for x months, then I will consider it in X months.

 

There's a lot of stuff to do, and a lot of factors to consider. If you can break the problem down and focus (key word) on ALL of the factors affecting today's decision you'll make good decisions. Of course, the trick is knowing for sure what factors to include. That takes a lot of research. :)

 

As for Joe's original question, the problem with a lot of auto gauges is that they dont make them to measure all the things we need. The turbo boost, for example, is always in PSI in a car. We need to see the boost in relation to ambient pressure, so an aircraft boost guage reading inches of mercury is better for us. We want CHT and EGT. If you mix aircraft and auto guages you wont have a consitant look across the panel. Also the quality / reliability of some of the pretty auto stuff is low. Flourecent is cool in a car, but you want an A/C panel to be non reflective and non intrusive on you're attention outside the cockpit.

 

I used the Westach white on black stuff. By the time you're ready the electronic EFIS / Engine systems might be reasonable in cost. I've always flown with the basic 6 flight instruments, so I wanted that familiar look and ease of understanding in my Cozy. Later, once I have a good comfort level with the plane, I'll think about adding an EFIS.

 

Speaking of instruments etc. I just ordered a Brother 1500PC printer with white on clear tape to redo all my panel labels. The Dyno tapes are starting to look a bit tacky.

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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When I started looking at building a Cozy, a year ago, I had all these fanciful ideas..........About what the Instrument Panel/ Dash would look like.

 

I wanted to JAZZ it up a bit........a year later being a pilot and knowing more about the Instruments, I can't seem to get the "POW" i was looking for.

 

I would imagine that what I will do , Is: ...Put most of the "POW", in the Interior Decorating/ Custom Interior Finish......Like contrasting color & textures.

 

I like some of the High performance car guages used in Racing........And these are High quality............But, Mr. Slade's statement of not having that "Consistant Look", makes for a good argument.

 

I plan on having my Cozy in the air next within just over a year.......Not sure things are gonna change that fast.

 

Have you guys used www.epanelbuilder.com to do any panel discovery?

 

Here is my best shot so far at a panel.....

 

 

 

enjoying the company

 

cheers

Edit below:

I also intend to use what Al Wicks uses, Laptop.with Engine Equipment.

post-458-141090152317_thumb.jpg

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

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Joe, since you are a look ahead kinda guy. You might want to consider the seat coushions. You have to step on them to get in and out of the plane. I saw on your jpeg you are using the standard nose gear. That makes the front seat even more of a dirt trap. one more tip. Never leave the canopy open around big dogs. They think the cockpit is a tire or tree. Been there done that. ;)

If the phone don't ring. It's me

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Chuck,

Thanks good point (about the Nose Gear crank). I included it but I am not sure if I need it. That brings up a good question, and reminds of a few others I intended to ask.

 

1.) Do I need and can I install both Electric, and Manual nose lift? On the right hand side under the ADF, there I have included the electric Nose Lift. I am not sure if I can use them both or if I need to, have a manual backup. I also do not know "IF" the electric nose lift has to be in a particular spot.

 

2.) Should I use Leather, coverings or Vinyl, on the seats? I have considered the seat cushions, just wasn't ready to publish that picture yet. Of course When Getting IN-Out of my Cozy, You will have a towel to wipe your shoes off, first, or maybe I will have some little booties, you can sit and slip them over your shoes before Entering, "The Spaceship".

 

3.) What are your opinions about the "Main Six Flight Instruments"? If you will notice, I have installed 2.25 Inch Instruments. I think the 3&3/8 Inch, are too big in my Cessna, I have never looked at 2.25 but I am imagining they will be good.

 

 

 

Thanks again for the tip about the seats, & Nose Gear.

 

enjoy the fellowship

Joe

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

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What Do YOU Want?

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I plan on having my Cozy in the air next within just over a year

That's ambitious. The fastest I've heard of was Mike Higgins in about 15 months. I think Norm Muzzy was also under 2 years. My airframe was done in 18 months, and I worked a LOT of hours. Not saying it can't be done - just a lot of work in a short time.

 

As for you're panel design. Yes I played with that tool too. Excellent bit of software and very helpful. First thing that comes to mind is the switch panel. Its usually top center. I think the reason is that you can glance at gauges and take them in. Swiches need a more precise identification/action, and take more time away from you're outside scan, so they're usually closer to the screen = less eye movement.

 

I wouldnt be happy with small flight gauges. I was taught to look at the panel in one "look", then get my head back outside while "processing" what I'd seen.

 

I wouldnt want to give up a lot of space to laptop storage. If I do use a laptop it wont be the permanent solution. A dedicated computer on the panel with appropriate easy access buttons (like go to nearest) is where I want to be eventually. I had a lot of trouble squeezing everything into the panel as it is.

 

Ideally the two CDI heads should be on the left side so you're not looking at them at an angle.

 

The compass is less used in these days of GPS, so I dont think it deserves to be in your face as much. I used a panel mount.

 

When you read Bob Nuckolls' stuff you may decide on a fuse box instead of breakers as I did. This gets you some space back.

 

Nose lift

The electric nose lift must be mounted in a specific spot, and it comes with a manual backup. Forget the manual crank. The electric lift replaces it.

 

Leather typically stands up better than viynl.

 

didn't you down load all of the zetlins archives and read them before you started?

Yes I did, while waiting for the plans. I learned a lot from those archives.

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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Hey John,

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

So the possitive news is I am ambitios............Go figure.

 

1.) As for the Engine gauges, coming from running tractors, and big equipment...There is nothing more important than them.....so they stay up top. I scan my gauges about four times a minute.

 

2.) I can see those 3.375 gauges from 10 feet away.......I don't look at them much, mostly fly eyes out the window. They (2.25 In.Gauges)also buy me much needed Panel Real-estate.

 

3.) Laptop, must be put away for landings. That space is just around 1 inch by 12 inches for the laptop I have now, I can decrease the 12inches down to 8 inches......but I fly GPS by laptop using Jeppesen FliteStar/FliteMap, There is no better positional Awareness than a Laptop moving Map and a beautiful co-pilot helping with it.(wouldn't leave home without it), also I will be using engine monitoring with the Laptop. There is an arm that swingsout of the Laptop compartment with the computer afixed to it, holds it in a Re-Positional Tray.

 

4.) Compass..In my face. I will rethink that, you have a point.

5.) CDI.........same as above..I will rethink that, but not too sure I need two on the left.

6.) Fusebox or Breakers...I am already ready to rework that, wasn't too sure already.

7.) Nose lift.Electric.Ijust need to know where it goes............The Crank is HISTORY .Thanks for the heads up on that.Do you know where there is a pic of where the Electric Nose Lift would be located?

8.) Leather Seats......i love yaman, you have good taste & style.....I have seen the pics of your seats. REALLY NICE, Of course mine will be Red and Black.Hmmmmmm or not, maybe white, and POW/Pink. WITH A BUILTIN HEATPAD.(see below)

 

9.) The Zeitlin Files...Mysterious sounding.....Don't leave Europe without them.

 

 

Thanks Bro,

Joe

 

John Slade, Way to go on the Project..You have laid your work out very nicely, It should go good for you. I have been so nmuch enjoying the reports.

post-458-141090152319_thumb.jpg

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

What Do YOU Want?

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Joe I used canvas duck. Reasons, Easy to remove and clean. Lite. My hind end can't see. When flying I have better things to do than admire what I'm sitting on. As for wiping your feet. It looks good on paper. When you start flying next year you will know what I mean.

Now get out to the shop! You got work to do!

OOPS! Sorry, I don't do that anymore.:D

If the phone don't ring. It's me

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As for the Engine gauges, coming from running tractors, and big equipment...There is nothing more important than them.....so they stay up top.

This aint no tractor, ol buddy. It's an "intelligent" machine moving at over 200mph. It wont be your job to watch engine guages, you'll be too busy watching for 110mph Cessnas. You'll have a computer doing the gauge watching for you, and ideally it'll say "Joe, you're oil pressure's low!" if that happens. Sure, it's nice to have a readout to look at when you need it, but you're scan will tend to be a 2 second glance. Think of it this way - there's a Lear on a reciprocal path. Closing speed is 600mph. Visibility is 3 miles in haze. How long have you got to spot him??? Answer - 18 seconds. Same logic applies to the small flight guages. You NEED to scan these quickly. Another way to consider this might be - how many airplanes do you see with small flight gauges? Are the majority of designers wrong?

 

You seem set on the laptop. I'd suggest do some Xcountry flying with one before cutting holes in the panel for it. Scanning you're passenger's lap area isnt ideal for concentration. :D

 

There are lots of pics of the Wilhelmson nose lift in my web site. It's in the center abouce the nose wheel (Duh). The only item on the panel is the switch (typically central and low) and the manual backup which is a small socket. If you get the double crank mechanism (recommended) this goes low on the center panel, otherwise it's in the middle of you're radio stack. :mad:

 

As for the one year flight target. How about this - To get anywhere close to this you'll need to have the bare unfinished airframe complete in six months. i.e. by the end of August '04. Hit that target, send me a picture of the assembled airplane, and I hereby promise to fly out there cheering "Go Joe" and give you some Cozy flight time. :P Will that help you get you're ass in gear?

 

What engine type did you say you were going to use?

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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Originally posted by John Slade

This aint no tractor, ol buddy. It's an "intelligent" machine moving at over 200mph.

You ought to Write sound bites for some political candidate running for office.............but I did set myself up for that one.

 

Originally posted by John Slade

Same logic applies to the small flight guages. You NEED to scan these quickly. Another way to consider this might be - how many airplanes do you see with small flight gauges? Are the majority of designers wrong?

Asked and answered.

 

Originally posted by John Slade

You seem set on the laptop. I'd suggest do some Xcountry flying with one before cutting holes in the panel for it. Scanning you're passenger's lap area isnt ideal for concentration. :D

Yup, Did that, The 12" screen makes a real nice X-country Moving map, w/Jeppesen I have all the charts moving weather overlay, and I have been looking "scanning" My wifes Lap area for 25 .

 

Originally posted by John Slade

... only item on the panel is the switch (typically central and low) and the manual backup ... If you get the double crank mechanism (recommended) this goes low on the center panel......

HHhhhhmmmm.......I couldn't tell from your pictures, where the Switch/socket was, or even what it was. It seems like your pictures are getting better.must be the practice.

 

Originally posted by John Slade

As for the one year flight target. How about this - To get anywhere close to this you'll need to have the bare unfinished airframe complete in six months. i.e. by the end of August '04. Hit that target, send me a picture of the assembled airplane, and I hereby promise to fly out there cheering "Go Joe" and give you some Cozy flight time.

What engine type did you say you were going to use?

 

Yada Yada Yada.......& blah blah blah.............Must be nice to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I guess you think addressing me this way is going to help.

 

As for the engine, I am looking at them all.

 

Originally posted by John Slade

Will that help you get you're ass in gear?

Wow.......Wonder how many people said that to you, the week after you got your plans........if they did , I guess you must have enjoyed it.....

 

How old are you? Is everything OK at home?

:confused::(

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

What Do YOU Want?

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>How old are you? Is everything OK at home?

I think you read my post wrong, Joe. Something got lost in the text medium. I was just trying to offer some positive encouragement. Sorry if it came across condesending or some other way. Was meant as a genuine offer. I thought it would help give you a goal to shoot for.

 

Part of the fun of building is "personalizing" the plane. Do want you wanna do. Again, I was just trying to give some feedback. You did ask.

 

Off to the hangar...

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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I DID NOT take it condescending, I think it is more "Fatherly/Kind of Sweet" but I have never had a father, Maybe I don't know how to react to it, and I surely Don't need one.

I have an incredible motivation already.......A goal has been set, and will be met. How long it takes is less important to me than how good of a job I do. I only "HOPE" to get it done rather quickly.

 

You giving me flight time in your plane SOUNDS great, but it isn't going to keep me motivated . I do appreciate the sentiment. However that is a long way to fly, and cheer me on, and give me flight time.but if you're up to it BRING IT ON> .......There is another "Old MAN" up this way, that has offered to give me some flight time, but he might not be as easy to talk into getting his hands dirty.

 

And I really did want to know "How old are You"?

 

How are things at home?, just happened to fit into the "Hey

Watch IT" kind of category.........

As far as YOUR Home, I am still reading your evening posts about "Countdown to Takeoff, with great anticipation. A good way to finish my day............Good Luck, or,....... Good work would be closer.

 

I wonder, if you have second thought YOUR statement, about an aircraft(even a Cozy) being "Intelligent"?

:confused::cool:

 

Be Happy, I love You Brother,

Joe

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

What Do YOU Want?

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more "Fatherly/Kind of Sweet"

Sure wasnt meant that way either.

And I really did want to know "How old are You"?

54

YOUR statement, about an aircraft(even a Cozy) being "Intelligent"?

I was referring to engine monitors that keep an electronic eye on 16 or more high and low settings and alert you if something gets out of bounds. This kind of diligence is hard to do manually, and takes time away from the visual outside scan.

 

Once you've got everything calibrated and tested these EMs can help you keep your head outside. I was suggesting that, with one of these, you wouldn't need the engine dials at top center. My approach was to cut a 6.25 panel for the eventual GPS/Com and EM system, cut holes in it for analog engine gauges and put it back. Once I'm done flight testing, and the mission changes to high speed cross country, the analog engine gauges will be replaced with an EM system.

 

He ain't heavy - he's my brother - now get him off my back :D

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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John,

 

Do as you wish with your panel. To me the Laptop is the most versatile Instrument there is. There isn't enough real-estate there for me to put that big of a whole in it, for something I will only use every once in awhile. If you haven't already, you should talk with Al Wick, or read a bit about how he uses a Laptop computer to help with "Flight Checking" a new aircraft. You can home at the end of the day, and cross check 3D map of flight against a record of the engine monitoring system.

 

When I fly X-country, take the Laptop...if I am flying for practice or just around the area for sight seeing, I won't need the artificial Intelligence. That "Tractor Experience" had some benifits, I can interpret well.THEM DANG GAUGES ARE STAYING RIGHT WHERE I PUT THEM.

 

54..............Hhhhmmmmmmmmmm:D You are not quite old enough to be my POP. But well old enough to be My Elder, I will be more respectful of you now.;)

 

 

54 is as young as you make it. May the heavens open their arms and hold you and your plane in a peaceful embrace.

Joe

 

Had to edit..I spelled Interpret (as in Interpret gauges).....I had put interpolate.......HHHmmm.

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

What Do YOU Want?

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A laptop can be helpful if you know how to put the system together. I plan on using a laptop plugged into a docking station in the console. Then using a 17" flip down media monitor that is attatched above on the canopy. I plan on using the monitor driven by the laptop to display moving map, while using the laptop also to drive normal appearing guages. (I don't like the current trend of putting all flight information on computer screens! Ye old steam guages are much easier to read than a computer screen! Think of it as a digitally controlled watch that displays the hands of time.) Should the electrical system take a dump, the laptop will have it's own battery to run with for 2-3 hours. The mollen 12 channel GPS I have right now is the size of a matchbox and plugs into the USB port. The solid state attitude, airspeed, and altitude system I'm looking at can also run from the laptop power system.

 

Obviously technology is changing so fast that by the time I have my plane ready, this could be common place... or something more interesting could come along. But that is the plan for now. :D

 

Joe! Where's our easy going brother huggin' hippie? :D I think you took what John said the wrong way. As you build, keep an eye out over here. When you see a few newbies come and go after talking about "what's the big deal" (I said that) and "how fast can I build this thing?" (sounds vaguely familiar), then you will understand John's perspective. He just doesn't want you to get discouraged and quit if 12 months turns out to be an unrealistic expectation. I hope you DO build it in 12 months and beat Mr. Higgins' record. (He told me he thought I should build an RV! :mad: )

 

So... uh... peace out, or... how did that go? :confused: Uh... I wish you plenty of beatings in prison... so that parole is so much sweeter? That doesn't sound quite right...

This ain't rocket surgery!

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Hhhhhmmmmmmmmm.............Maybe I did take something the wrong way.

 

I guesss it seems a bit at times , that the Old Timers in the forum expect me to think and plan, and be motivated in a particular way. I seem to be looking for a way to squelch this, and can't find it.

 

I also seem to not be able to get across my exact "Spirit of Speak". I thought "Fatherly" was closer to what I took something as, than Condesending..............Now perhaps we have turned a "Instrument Panel Preferences" THREAD into "Computer Etiquette" THREAD, or "Computer Etiquette & Personal Syntax"

 

 

I am a jovial, Peace Lovin Hippy...........Without a way of expressing exactly what I feel, on a computer forum.

 

I have a grip on my perspective, and I hope John, will forgive me if I can not quite get a grip on his.

 

So Peace-Out, You groove Doggers.

Joe:cool: :D :D :cool:

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

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THIS POST IS NOT Worth Reading.

Male cow excrement! This puts a valuable perspective on the psychology of building.

 

Ah - so I'm an old timer now, huh?

 

I think MT has a handle on it. I remember asking what I thought were new questions and getting the old "follow the plans" and "shut up and build" comments, and I recall being annoyed by them the tenth time around. I now find myself saying the same thing. Why? Because I guess you have to do it to know its true. This isn't about computer etiquette, its about Cozy etiquette. The conflict lies in the fact that the typical builder is an intelligent inovative experimenter type who doesnt take this type of comment lying down (I know I didn't) - and often actually reacts the opposite way and does it anyway out of spite :D. I did that with the engine and the NACA cooling. Looking back, however, they were right, damn them. Sticking to plans would have saved me a bunch of time. Most of the stuff I've learned the hard way could have been avoided if I'd listened to those who'd been there already. I might not have had as much fun, though, or learned as much.

 

Nothing to forgive, Joe. Were doing the best we can with a crappy medium.

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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I'm really tired of newbys asking questions about thins that don't matter to them at this point, joe, get building, stop wasting our time on instrument panel layout.

 

BTW, thanks rising spirit for bringing up the instrument panel layout, made me realize that our emergency noze gear hand crank is right in the middly of where the radios go, clifford is redoing it as i type. thanks again, he he he

 

enjoy the build, keep questioning

 

dust

maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

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I am really tired of Old Farts tellin NEWBIES how to Think, and Plan.

 

MIKE/DUST, say something constructive......Talk about wasting TIME & SPACE, JEEZE.......not everyone thinks like you. And Why do you insist on calling me "Rising Spirit", That is my Planes Name? And If you want me to build, send MONEY. Until I get the money, I will continue to do what I SEE TO BE IN MY BEST INTEREST. Don't make me come up there and straighten you out. <GRIN> I got special approval from NAT, to wipe the floor with you.

 

If you think "Reading Newbie Posts" , is a waste of your time,

Then DON'T READ THEM!!!!!!!

 

NOW>>>>>>>>>

 

I took what John Slade had to say to heart, and (even though Dusty Mike thinks it a waste of everyones time) Re-modified my Panel Layout, to use the 3.125 inch instruments. The engine instruments, I left on the top.(forgive me John)

 

 

I created a drawing of a "Panel" within the panel for the Six(6) Main Flight Instruments. I was thinking about shook-mounting them..?????........I read in some web-site post, this is done...Kind of like a Cessna.

 

Here is the revision of the Panel, with the 3.125 Inch Instruments. I suggest EVERYONE make their Panels Like mine.

:cool:

 

I love you brothers, but I love my kids too, and wooped them when they needed it.

 

Peace out,

Joe

post-458-141090152321_thumb.jpg

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

What Do YOU Want?

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joe said

 

"If you think "Reading Newbie Posts" , is a waste of your time,

Then DON'T READ THEM!!!!!!!"

 

 

I wasn't kidding on the placement of our emergency crank, had you not posted your dash layout and the ensuing conversation, we would have had to ruin a good dash in the future to fix it, now we are fixing it. just trying to make a little hunor, your questions did ME and THANE AND CLIFFORD immediate good, keep it up.

 

enjoy the planning

 

dust

maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

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