Wicks Aircraft

[Jim Irwin]

Notice to Cozy Builders-

 

Wicks Aircraft has elected not to continue as an authorized distributor of Cozy materials and kits. Because of this decision by Wicks management, we have removed Wicks Aircraft as a distributor from our website and Nat Puffer will do the same in the next issue of the Cozy newsletter.

 

When Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Co. reached an agreement with Nat Puffer to acquire the Cozy design rights in 2002, Wicks management at the time agreed that the contracts in place between Co-Z Development and Wicks Aircraft would be transferred unchanged to Aircraft Spruce when the deal became official on January 1, 2004. The other authorized Cozy distributors, Brock Manufacturing and Featherlite also agreed that their contracts would transfer to Aircraft Spruce, they have complied. The new management at Wicks Aircraft however have decided that they will not honor that agreement that was made by their previous management, and we certainly respect their decision, which dictates that they are no longer an authorized distributor of Cozy Materials.

 

I am very disappointed that Wicks has decided not to honor the agreement which they made, as Nat Puffer, who had a lengthy discussion with the current Wicks management on the subject. If Cozy builders wish to continue to purchase Cozy materials from Wicks they are certainly free to do so, although such purchases will no longer help provide builder support, newsletters, and other services provided by Nat Puffer through his arrangements with Aircraft Spruce under the terms of the sale. Aircraft Spruce is committed to working to working with Nat and Cozy Builders groups to provide on-going support of the design, and we thank Cozy Builders everywhere for your on-going support of our efforts.

 

My personal thanks to all Cozy Builders for your understanding this matter and if any builder would like confirmation of the information above, I encourage you to contact Nat Puffer directly at Co-Z Development Corp. If you have any comments or suggestions regarding the Cozy program please feel free to send them direct to me at jji@aircraftspruce.com

 

Jim Irwin

President, Aircraft Spruce

[Joe Patterson]

Bummer, My Wicks catalog just arrived in the mail this last week. As did my AS catalog...........Being Politically correct.

Their prices are a bit higher anyway.

[mplafleur]

If purchases from Wicks did indeed

help provide builder support, newsletters, and other services provided by Nat Puffer

and will no longer such, then I will no longer make purchases from Wicks.

 

UNLESS, said article is not available from any other source.

 

I have a balance at ACS anyway.

[Joe Patterson]

In other words, Wicks has decided that it doesn't make sense to pay

royalties to their competitor when they really shouldn't. Thanks, Wicks.

I don't want to pay that much extra, either.

You buy the plans from AS. You get materials from wherever. If you get

parts from an "authorized" supplier, the price is jacked up by some amount

to cover AS's portion. OK. It's a marketing agreement.

Just buy the materials to spec from whatever source you like.

 

THIS and other builder-supported forums and e-mails are adequate mechanisms for

builder support.

 

 

I agree whole heartedly

[John Slade]

As someone on the Cozy list said, this move probably makes sense from Wicks' point of view. As an executive at Wicks I can see not wanting to pay royalties to the main competitor. Other companies supply fiberglass, foam, aircraft hardware etc. etc. They don't have to work with a compressed margin and pay their competitors, so why should Wicks.

 

As for support, these days most support comes from other builders through forums like this. We pay for the newsletter. I'm happy that Nat will get reimbursed by Spruce for his efforts in supporting builders and marketing the Cozy at fly-ins. Who we choose to buy from doesn't affect that arrangement. It only affects the Spruce bottom line profit.

 

I'm pretty much done buying parts, but my current procedure will stay in effect when I do. For small orders I just call Wicks. Period. 4 days later, like clockwork, the right parts arrive on my doorstep. For larger orders I check the price at Wicks and Spruce and maybe a few other places. If there's not much difference I buy from Wicks. They've been wonderful for the past 5 years and I have a lot of loyalty to them. If the price is radically lower at Spruce I'll buy there. (happened twice recently). Spruce have been making an effort lately, and they deserve a fair crack - but only if they're competitive with price and they continue to keep the customer support at an acceptable level.

 

For new builders considering placing large orders I'd recommend the following:

 

Read the plans until you find a fairly complex question relating to materials or parts. You WILL have such questions. Call both suppliers and ask your question. When you're order arrives there's almost bound to be something not quite right. See what kind of reception you get when returning or exchanging something. You're going to spending around $10k at one of these suppliers, so it's worth building a relationship with one of them. Price isn't everything. Consider the quality of the service you get from each supplier, and form you're loyalties based on that.

 

My 2c.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by Joe Patterson

I agree whole heartedly

 

Joe, it is extremely inappropriate to take a posting from one mailing list/forum and quote it, essentially in it's entirety, in another mailing list/forum. This has been discussed/requested here previously - must have been before you joined.

 

If the writer of what you quoted had wanted the statement to appear here, s/he'd have put it here. If you want to reference the statement and paraphrase, that's a different story, but please, do NOT post messages from other mailing lists here without the original writer's permission, and at least attribution.

 

Thanks.

[LargePrime]

I'll disagree very strongly with Marc on this Joe.

 

Anyone should post whatever they want here . Cross pollination is good, even great.

 

The posted content is public domain and let no one tell you different.

[John Slade]

Hmmmm. I don't do it because I know you've asked that it not be done, but I'm still trying to understand why you have a problem with this particular issue, Marc.

 

The only reason I can come up with is that you feel that the "content" of you're list is an asset in some way, and has value over and above that of "freely available information". That conclusion bothers me slightly.

 

If I post somewhere - flyrotary, cozylist, my web-site, aeroelectric list, where-ever, I'm posting information or comment for public consumption. Period. I don't know who's receiving the information - I just hope its of use to someone somewhere. So, if ever anyone feels that something I posted someplace might be valuable somewhere else they have my permission implicit and explicit to repost it.

 

(not the whole damn website, by the way - that MIGHT eventually have an asset value all its own, but quotes and images from it may be freely reposted.)

 

How do other members feel about comments on this list being reposted on other lists? Marc? Is it ok the other way around? If so, why the difference?

[Joe Patterson]

I don't think anyone would have known, had yo not said so much about it.

 

But anyway, .........I feel REALLY BAD about doing it, I will Correct myself, and perhaps ask my WIFE to give me a floggin.

 

I surely meant to do nothing wrong.................

 

Whatever penalty you asses , I will submit to.

 

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by John Slade

.....If I post somewhere - flyrotary, cozylist, my web-site, aeroelectric list, where-ever, I'm posting information or comment for public consumption. Period.

And I feel the same way, but not everyone does. Since permission was not asked, the safe thing to do is not post it until permission IS granted, and not post it if it's not granted.

 

 

Originally posted by John Slade

How do other members feel about comments on this list being reposted on other lists? Marc? Is it ok the other way around? If so, why the difference?

Nope. It's not OK to take anything off this list and post it anywhere else, without the writer's permission, either. Goes both ways. It's just common courtesy.

 

Originally posted by LargePrime

Anyone should post whatever they want here . Cross pollination is good, even great.

I agree - cross pollination and information sharing is great. __IF__ the original writer agrees to it.

 

Originally posted by LargePrime

The posted content is public domain and let no one tell you different.

You know, I'm sure I could go online, and for anywhere between $0 and $20, find out who you are, where you live, your bank account balances, whether you're married or divorced, what kind of car you drive, and how you feel about airplanes. I could then post that information here, or anywhere else, since it was "public domain", and you'd be OK with that, right? No, I thought not, and I would not do such a thing, because it would upset you, and rightly so.

 

All I ask for is the courtesy of asking the original writer for permission to post their writing somewhere other than they originally put it. I really don't think that's an onerous request.

 

Originally posted by Joe Patterson

I surely meant to do nothing wrong.................

Of that I've no doubt.

 

Originally posted by Joe Patterson

Whatever penalty you asses, I will submit to.

The wife flogging thing sounded, ummmm, interesting, if you take some pictures.......

[Joe Patterson]

Dowg gown....I spelled access wrong.....................

[John Slade]

Froidian slip, perhaps?

[Jon Matcho]

Once having access to the asses, who in charge will assess the situation?

 

<Posted in Administrator OFF mode>

[Tyson]

Originally posted by Jim Irwin

Notice to Cozy Builders-

 

I am very disappointed that Wicks.......(cut)

 

Jim Irwin

President, Aircraft Spruce

 

Jim,

 

I'm disappointed that Wicks couldn't afford to buy the Cozy rights and that you could. I'm disappointed that you're taking the time to "notify" all builders that Wicks is no longer an approved supplier. I'm disappointed with AS&S for the numerous problems I've had with orders from AS&S. I'm disappointed with AS&S for all the problems many (most?) other homebuilders have had with AS&S over the years. I'm sorry that your buying power price-matching scheme will sooner or later rub out most of the competition. I'm sorry that people have to check your catalog, your online price, Trade-a-Plane, and every advertisement you have to make sure they're getting the lowest price you are currently selling products for.

 

Knowing AS&S, you've probably already contacted Nat to apologize that his first royalties check has been back-ordered, and you'll get it out ASAP. Then you'll send it out late to the wrong address. Then you'll send it to him, but will short it and personally apologize. Then two months later the first check will be paid in full.

 

I'm not disappointed when I spend 5% more to deal with stand-up people and receive quality service when ordering from Wicks.

[LargePrime]

If you had to get someone's permission to say what they said nothing would ever get said that was said.

 

Is it "common courtesy" to Bully newby's into your way of thinking by publicly rebuking them if they dont comply to your unwriten rules?

 

If it's common courtesy for YOU marc then say so. Dont assume, imply, or demand it is for everyone. And dont bully newby's into your way of thinking by making them think they screwed up when they didn't.

 

The IDEA of it being somehow appropiate to quote someone only after you ask is very offensive to me personaly, but you do as you like.

 

Are you suggesting we should ask dust if we can say "enjoy the build"?

 

If I quote you in my response should I ask first?

[Jim Sower]

C'mon ladies .... let's settle down and think this thing through ...

Marc has a point. Attribution and permission are common courtesy. Ask for permission and you will get it. Make a reasonable effort to ask and see to it that you attribute and you have done your courtesy and can get on with things. If Marc sounds a little intense (like he's acquiring my gift for assertive responses to smallish issues:)) it does not alter the fact that he's dead right. I can't see where saying "please" and "thank you" is an unreasonable burden on any of us, or an impediment to the free flow of information. Mentioning sources is pretty much the rule here anyway - when No4 jumps in my sh*t, he doesn't act like he invented all those formulas - he names the book he read them out of - so that I can read up on my stuff. What's all the excitement about? Joe slipped. He (or any of the rest of us) probably won't again. How is any of this worth getting all pissy and worked up over?

 

Once again it's P.V.O.R.T time.

[Joe Patterson]

Now I got to an Agree with this "Large Prime Character".<grin>

 

Copy and paste.....is standard computer chit.

 

You can bet I will not do it again, but jeeze iffin you gotta ask, about everything.

 

I'm a little gun shy now, I wanted to put a web address up for a great site, but the owner of the site visits here.......sure don't wanna tick him off too.

 

I'm a gonna put a link to Marc Z's web-site on top now instead of on the bottom, that'l learn him.

 

<bending over to kiss Marc's shoes> I haven't met Marc, but I think the world of him, in the past year I have learned a lot from his web site, and in the past couple of weeks a whloe lot more from this forum........Stole a whole bunch of words......<begging permission> Pleasea Mr. Marc, may I keep em words I stole.

 

Cripes, I don't want to upset people,........but Please stop looking for something to be upset about....I really am good at Kissing @$$............I just would rather not.

[CBarber]

Hey, I am the lawyer on the list, isn't kissing ass my job.

 

Chris

[mplafleur]

"Cros pollenation" or the pasting of other members comments from one thread to another is a regular event that occurs on ALL internet forums that I paruse. I consider it healthy and positive.

 

If permission is needed, I give it...

[LargePrime]

Permission is inappropriate. If I post something somewhere I don’t want 50 people emailing me to ask if they can quote me, and neither would you. The idea is silly. It’s public domain, do what you want with it.

 

As I asked above...

Are you suggesting we should ask dust if we can say "enjoy the build"?

 

If I quote you in my response should I ask first?

 

If i use a cliche, do i have to look up the author, and ask permission, if they arent dead, and petition thier estate if they are?

 

Accreditation (which is a new topic, and has nothing to do with what we are talking about, thanks Jim) is most likely appropriate, and common courtesy, but may not be in all circumstances.

 

The point is a very respected member of our community is throwing his weight around on wrong headed points, and brow beating new members. Respect for his achievements and knowledge aside, That’s wrong.

[No4]

"when No4 jumps in my sh*t, he doesn't act like he invented all those formulas "

Well someone has got to keep you and Marc honest.

Anyway, you'd be bored stiff without me throwing rocks at you.

( By the way, I dare not post without triple checking my numbers, and I go to sleep with one eye open!)

 

Mr Tyson doesn't seem to hold AS&S in very good stead.

 

Anybody any comments on the spruce suppliers??

 

Cheers

Adam

[mplafleur]

How the hell can I fix my spelling errors if I can't edit my post!

 

I hate leaving spelling/typos!

 

I gave permission for those who think it necessary. I already said that I thought it unnecessary.

 

Quoting is great and a form of complement. Just make sure you give the reference.

[Rui]

When you're order arrives there's almost bound to be something not quite right

 

To bring this thread back on topic just a little I'd like to share my experience with Wicks. I put a substantial order with them (ie. chapters 4 through 19) in September. Furthermore I combined my order with another builder in the area that got almost as much as I did. Everything came and after spending a couple of evenings checking everthing, THERE WASN'T A SINGLE ERROR. My invoice was 13 pages long!!! My order-mates was 8-9 pages long!!! There was an item backordered, but they sent that along a week or so later at no extra cost. I was amazed. I don't mind paying an extra 5% for this type of service when I hear the horror stories from some people who ordered from ASS.

 

One of the really nice touches was that each chapter's misc hardware (ie bolts and rivets) came in a separate baggie. Also each baggie had the invoice page number where it was listed. This way I could verify that everthing was there by going to the appropriate page in the invoice and check it off. Now thats smart, gives me the warm fuzzy feeling that the people at Wicks actually know what they are doing and have the customer in mind. Only if every company I have to deal with was so conscientious (sp?).

[ekisbey]

Just a note to those interested, as I haven't seen this mentioned by anyone yet.

 

I just looked at the AS&S website and found they now offer materials "kits," by chapter, for the Mark IV.

 

Cozy Mark IV Kits

 

They also have listed kits sorted by material type, such as "Section II Fiberglass" and priced it, presumably enough material of the required type for the entire section. There's no link that I see that lists what's included in the kit you're ordering, so you're going on their word that it's correct. I would hope that, for their sake, it's all there and correctly labeled/identified.

 

I've not purchased any "large" orders yet from anyone, just enough to start Chapter 4, since I've been hampered by numerous (damn near monthly) short-term military deployments over the last year. I'll be ordering for the next several chapters at my first opportunity, possibly for the the entire first section. I haven't priced against Wicks yet, but right now, I'm favoring AS&S.

 

Someone will probably beat me to the punch on using these listings to place an order, since I won't be in a position to do so for a year at least. If someone does, I think we'd all greatly appreciate it if they gave a detailed report of service and accuracy for comparison, since plenty of those already exist from Wicks customers.

 

Good luck, to whomever goes first.

[Jim Sower]

Originally posted by LargePrime

Permission is inappropriate. If I post something somewhere I don’t want 50 people emailing me to ask if they can quote me, and neither would you. The idea is silly. It’s public domain, do what you want with it.

If Joe had just said ... was said elsewhere (by whoever) ... "...his text/snip..."

There would have been no disturbance at all.

 

<... Are you suggesting we should ask dust if we can say "enjoy the build" ...>

This and the rest of your list of "should I's" is a silly and deliberate extrapolation that seems to be designed to keep the fires burning

 

<... Accreditation (which is a new topic, and has nothing to do with what we are talking about, thanks Jim) is most likely appropriate, and common courtesy, but may not be in all circumstances...>

Guess I must be on the wrong thread. I thought accreditation was central to Marc's response that started this whole silly pissing contest (which has already consumed far FAR more time and energy than it was ever worth).

 

Originally posted by LargePrime The point is a very respected member of our community is throwing his weight around on wrong headed points, and brow beating new members. Respect for his achievements and knowledge aside, That’s wrong.

Agreed. And then the whole freakin' forum seems to have stampeded into that same morass.

 

I think everything of merit (and a woeful amount of sh*t devoid of any merit at all) has already been said. GAWD!! I wish we could move on to something important.

 

Perhaps we can all agree that nothing that anyone says from here on out is going change anyone's mind. Then could we move on?