No4 Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 I was reading an article about getting massive horsepower into semi trailer tractor engines. They were increasing a Cummins six's output from 500 hp to 900 hp. This mainly involved a huge increase in boost. One of the problems they encountered was the flame burning a hole in the top of the pistons. They apparently sent their next set of pistons to be ceramic coated and there was barely any heat transfer to the piston, and they received improved efficiency from the exhaust turbine. Could I ask if anyone knows much about this? I think it was Mr cncdoc who also mentioned it. I think the process involved some sort of supersonic sand blaster with an arcing electrode at the tip. Secondly, I went to the local turbocharger shop, who deal in mainly Japanese rockets. The nice biker man with the turbocharged Harley told me they heat treat almost the entire engine, and I think it involved deep freezing, could I go so far as to say Cryogenic? Also any thoughts on Teflon? If anybody knows anything about the above I'd be grateful hear it, thanks. I'm planing on running some serious boost, and would like to deal with the problem now. Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Steve Brooks (building turbo 13B Cozy IV) on the fly rotary list had his exhaust pipe ceramic coated for about $40, I think. The company's web site is www.jet-hot.com and their number is 800-432-3379. They claim the coating reduces radiant heat, reduces the heat absorbed by the exhaust pipe itself, and increases engine power. I'm considering this for my stainless exhaust shroud (pictures soon), but I'm concerned about focusing all the heat in one place - onto my wood prop. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LargePrime Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 These Coating have been aroung a while, and are getting very good, so I hear. The problem had been durability, not results. Seems an issue has been getting them to stick in the long term. I belive they use an combination of etching and expansion/contraction to get a good mechanical bond for the coatings, but I can't find anyone who will talk about it. Coating technology has been going through a revolution much like computers did in the 90's. Changing so fast no one knows what to do with them. In one of my home towns they have a shop that puts a coating on bearing surfaces of cranks mains and journals. With it they claim you dont need oil. Preety big claim, but thier drag team is winning with it. Unbelivable. Quote We know who you are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 HPC Coatings are a world wide company. looking at their site it seems you can ceramic face the pistons and valves, then treat the exhaust manifold and header. The figures look remarkable. http://www.hpcoatings.com/ I was right! It is cryogenic freezing. These guys here in NZ, are also claiming remarkable improvements. Even makes your shooter more accurate apparently. The first site explains the process quite well http://www.cryogenic.co.nz and this group seem to use other methods http://www.heat-treat.co.nz Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hennie Engelbrecht Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Originally posted by John Slade Steve Brooks (building turbo 13B Cozy IV) on the fly rotary list had his exhaust pipe ceramic coated for about $40, I think. The company's web site is www.jet-hot.com and their number is 800-432-3379. They claim the coating reduces radiant heat, reduces the heat absorbed by the exhaust pipe itself, and increases engine power. I'm considering this for my stainless exhaust shroud (pictures soon), but I'm concerned about focusing all the heat in one place - onto my wood prop. I used the plasma spray coating process on the inside of plasma guns with great success. Reduced heatloss in the plasma a lot. Therefore reduced cooling requirements. The coating that I used was more exotic than one would need for exhaust pipes but I am sure you will see a big difference. http://www.flamesprayinc.com/coatings.htm has some information that can be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeC Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I'm considering this for my stainless exhaust shroud (pictures soon), but I'm concerned about focusing all the heat in one place - onto my wood prop. Hopefully with your configuration, if it really works as an exhaust augmentor like you hope, there should be a good amount of mixing between the exhaust gases and the air from your cooling system before it hits the prop. If not, I guess you would end up with a pretty cool racing stripe on your prop (Char Marks). Jake Quote www.homebuiltairplanes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 I spoke to HPC in Auckland today. They can ceramic coat the piston faces, valve faces, and the cylinder head in the combustion chamber. I think the price works out at US$100. They can then use their special paint on the exhauslt manifold, turbine casing, and tailpipe for another US$30. Finally they can coat the remaining moving parts with their special coating which vastly improves lubrication for US$70. Not bad improvements to an engine for $200. They claim improved horsepower, reduced operating temperatures, and improved turbocharger efficiency. Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Hopefully with your configuration, if it really works as an exhaust augmentor like you hope, there should be a good amount of mixing between the exhaust gases and the air from your cooling system before it hits the prop. That's what I'm hoping. Ceramic coating the short exhaust pipe might actually be a bad idea for me since I want heat transfer to occur. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Sower Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 <...I used the plasma spray coating process on the inside of plasma guns with great success. Reduced heatloss in the plasma a lot. Therefore reduced cooling requirements. The coating that I used was more exotic than one would need for exhaust pipes...> What are plasma guns? How hot and how hard flow, etc.? <...ceramic coat the piston faces, valve faces, cylinder head ... US$100...special paint on the exhauslt manifold, turbine casing, tailpipe for another US$30... .coat the remaining moving parts ...vastly improves lubrication for US$70...Not bad improvements to an engine for $200...improved hp, reduced operating temps, improved turbocharger efficiency...> Let's see .... the last time a guy offered to fix my life for a hundred bucks .... Is the exhaust treatment on the inside or outside of the pipe? If it's outside, pipe has to absorb the heat that doesn't transfer, if it's inside, how does it hold up to the exhaust pulses and all the nasty stuff in exhaust? How many racing teams use this stuff and what do they have to say about it? In my experience, stuff that sounds too good to be true .... Quote ...Destiny's Plaything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cncdoc Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 When I read about rotary engine racers using ceramic coatings I had to do some research: It has it's good and bad points. Good: Different coatings do different things, reflect heat, absorb heat, conduct heat, reduce friction and so on. When pieces come off (see "Bad") it doesn't cause damage, or very little. Bad: MUST be properly applied to a properly prepared surface and "cooked" at the correct temp for the correct duration. Some shops will do the job cheap but not right. Sometimes, improperly applied ceramic will come off of the part. My understanding is that the coatings enhance or retard the temperature carrying properties of metal in an engine, depending on which type of coating was applied and where it was applied. Other coatings reduce bearing friction. The pieces are sandblasted and chemically treated to allow a good adhesion and then the coating is applied very carefully (like a good enamel paint job....no runs) and then it is heated to the proper temp (400 degrees f ..example) some coatings "break in" during exhaust temp "treatment" after initial heat treatment. One can order the coatings and do the treatment himself (or herself) as well, but an experienced tech can be of great help as there are numerous technigues involved in prep and application. There. Another general overview. Im going to do it for sure. Kevin Quote Back to building... #618 Cozy MK IV My Cozy web pages, courtesy: Rick Maddy... WN9G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Hallo Jim, cncdoc, and all, Jim asks "Is the exhaust treatment on the inside or outside of the pipe? If it's outside, pipe has to absorb the heat that doesn't transfer, if it's inside, how does it hold up to the exhaust pulses and all the nasty stuff in exhaust?" Yes it is on the outside, and it traps the heat into the exhaust manifold. I've been wondering about the header pipe becoming hotter, and the jury is still out (ie my two brain cells are still waiting to collide). Can you cook a header pipe? Anyway it must work somehow or they wouldn't bother. ..."How many racing teams use this stuff and what do they have to say about it? In my experience, stuff that sounds too good to be true ...." Pasted from HPC website..."HPC has revolutionized the exhaust component industry with highly developed coating technology. Testimonial to this achievement is 16 Daytona 500 and 15 Indianapolis 500 wins during our 19-year history. With such a rich racing heritage and the many performance improvements that have become so well accepted, you will find HPC products on OEM applications worldwide"... The first time I heard about this, it was the truck modifiers saying they sent their pistons to the same shop that prepares Paul Newman's Indy car. If you look at HPC's website, it seems motorsport is their key business, bikes, drag, Indy, Nascar, Formula 1, Le Mans, etc, etc. I'm pretty much decided to 'go the whole hog', I really like the idea of turning the chamber into a clay oven, and trapping all that heat for the turbocharger to play with. Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LargePrime Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Can be done on both sides. http://www.hpcoatings.com/engineering/aircharge.pdf Sometimes recommended http://www.hpcoatings.com/engineering/emissivity.pdf Quote We know who you are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hennie Engelbrecht Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Jim Sower <...I used the plasma spray coating process on the inside of plasma guns with great success. Reduced heatloss in the plasma a lot. Therefore reduced cooling requirements. The coating that I used was more exotic than one would need for exhaust pipes...> What are plasma guns? How hot and how hard flow, etc.? You can probably describe a plasma as a fourth state of matter solid, liquid gas , plasma. It is generated in a electrical arc to which you add a gas . It then causes a very high temperature ( 8-10 000 deg C)flow of plasma. There is a high temperature gradiant in the plasma gun so the temperature at the wall will be around 4000- 6000 deg C depending on many parameters. The way to protect equipment is to coat with ceramics/ exotic metal <...ceramic coat the piston faces, valve faces, cylinder head ... US$100...special paint on the exhauslt manifold, turbine casing, tailpipe for another US$30... .coat the remaining moving parts ...vastly improves lubrication for US$70...Not bad improvements to an engine for $200...improved hp, reduced operating temps, improved turbocharger efficiency...> Let's see .... the last time a guy offered to fix my life for a hundred bucks .... Is the exhaust treatment on the inside or outside of the pipe? If it's outside, pipe has to absorb the heat that doesn't transfer, if it's inside, how does it hold up to the exhaust pulses and all the nasty stuff in exhaust? How many racing teams use this stuff and what do they have to say about it? In my experience, stuff that sounds too good to be true .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashdog Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 That last statement is sort of what people say when they see a rutan canard aircraft... Ceramic technology is remarkable, and is most definitely the way of the future in engine technology. Nay-saying it is easy but misdirected, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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