Plans vrs kit

[dust]

OK we all know, a kit is easier and faster than plans, right.

 

Now the reality, NO

 

I know, in a kit you get big parts that just need to be put together and in a plans built airplane you have to build every part sooooooooooooooooooooo, IT HAS TO TAKE LONGER.

 

The reality is FALSE.

 

All of the "kits" i am familiar with take longer than a cozy plans built plane.

 

Glassair - 9000 houre

 

Velocity - 9 years retired, full time

 

RV - 6000 hours

 

 

Check it out, CALL real builders and you will find out that a cozy really can be built by an inexperienced builder in 1800 to 2500 hours.

 

I push the cozy because it is real, nat is a no bs kinda of guy, what he says can be trusted, that is not the case in this hobby.

 

Planes never go near as fast as advertised.

 

They can NOT be built in the time quoted.

 

Except by nat, see he is in retirement and has done this for fun first and money second for the last 15 or so years. He doesn't want people calling after 4,000 hours building and being 1/2 done and yelling. He doesn't want people saying that the plane goes 160 instead of his advertised 220 speed, he just doesn't want the grief, this is a fun exceting hobby and you should get what you were advertised and with a cozy, you do.

 

I make NO money off of the cozy, i just make friends, and good ones at that.

 

The cozy is a "fast build" airplane! Just talk to real people on all planes you are looking at and you will find out the real story!

 

Make sure you love the cozy before you start the build, because if you don't, do not build it, you won't finish it and will have to post to "reasons not to build thread".

 

If your dream is an aluminum airplane or a wooden airplane or a stol airplane, then eat the 4000 to 9000 hours and do it. Build what you want and finish it.

 

But, just a personal note on kits, buy all pieces day one, as too many of the manufacturers go out of business and leave the builder stuck, even the big ones.

[mplafleur]

Listen to Mike, he speaks truth.

 

Personally, I hope Nat makes money and he should. He came up with a good plan and provides us tireless service. Plus, I don't want the IRS to claim his business is a hobby.

[John Slade]

Well said, Mike. I agree entirely. I'd just add one point...

 

>a personal note on kits, buy all pieces day one

Good advise, but this is a BIG up-front outlay. At best, the parts will then deteriorate and become outdated as they take up you're entire spare room. At worst you won't finish the project, and the BIG outlay is largely unrecoverable. Buying plans is like testing the water with you're toe. Buying a kit is like diving in head first without knowing the water temp.

 

>too many of the manufacturers go out of business and leave the >builder stuck, even the big ones.

Right. Plus with plans the parts are bought from competing suppliers, none of whom relay on one type for their business.

[LargePrime]

Also there is a very strong comunity. Ask people who built cozy's about how much help they get, or could have got.

 

Another important point is that there are many vendors for any part of the plane. That keeps prices under controll and quality up. Much better than having only one source for stuff.

[dust]

the aircraft business is the first to go in a slow economy and the last to come back in a strong one, add to that the the tenuous hold most kit manufactures have on financial stability and you have

 

Glassair

Berkut

Speedqueen

that fancy expensive mustang

and on and on and on

 

I know people who lease a car with 12,000 mile limit on the lease and know they drive 20,000 a year. They only get the 12,000 because they can't afford the lease including 20,000. Three years later they really can't afford the cost of the extra miles at a very high per mile overage charge!

 

If you buy all of the parts at the beginning, then you are not stuck like so many have been over time and you will probably get a discount. I don't like giving this advice as I will probly build a float/tundra tire with a real long and skinney spinner on the prop for spear fishing and spear hunting in the future after the cozy and it might have to be a kit.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by LargePrime

Also there is a very strong comunity. Ask people who built cozy's about how much help they get, or could have got.

This is true for the canard community as a whole, as well as COZY's in particular. It's also true for MANY other aircraft types as well, including tons of kits.

 

Another important point is that there are many vendors for any part of the plane. That keeps prices under controll and quality up. Much better than having only one source for stuff.

Speaking as someone that has not yet built a plane, I don't think that you really have a frame of reference to make such a statement. For the most part, custom COZY parts are single sourced, and as I've said many times before, the quality control of most of the vendors is lousy at best. Featherlite, Aerocad, Brock - these guys would NEVER stay in business in a competitive environment. I can't tell you the # of parts I've received from them that suck, and I've had to rework.

 

With respect to Mr. Skorija's comments (that's "dust" for you CCF folks), I will respectfully disagree strongly with much of it. He's not comparing apples and apples, but apples and oranges, and most of his "data" is just plain wrong. All you have to do is read the "completions" sections of Kitplanes or Sport Aviation to see that hours to completion are nowhere NEAR what dust claims, and 1800 - 2500 hours for a COZY is optimistic, unless you're buying a lot of stuff prefab. RV's are coming off the line at a rate of about 1/day, and they take 1500 hours or so to complete. The only planes that take 4K hours or more are the OSH show winners. Velocities hardly take 18K hours - that statement is absurd on the face of it, as is 9K hours for glasairs. There may be ONE, somewhere, that took that long, but as an average, that's rediculous. There are MANY kitplanes out there from reputable dealers that can be built in 1000 - 3000 hours, and are cost competitive.

 

There's no reason to denigrate other planes (or modes of building) in order to elevate the COZY. Plans-built and Kit-built have different purposes. It depends on each person's goals and operating modes. At 2500 - 3000 hours for the COZY, it's hardly a "fast-build" plane.

 

With respect to factual claims of performance, most COZY's perform slightly worse than Nat's claims - I've never heard of any doing better on the same power. I've also never heard of one coming in at his claimed weight - at 1150 lb (100 lb over Nat's empty weight), my plane is one of the lighter ones I've seen.

 

Geez.

[dust]

He's not comparing apples and apples, but apples and oranges, and most of his "data" is just plain wrong.

 

Mark, go suck an egg, my data is not wrong, the builders I have talked to did not lie to me.

 

When I met the velocity builder I tried to cut the amount of time he built buy saying he only worked on it occasionaly, he did not.

 

The glassair that took 9000 hours was a neighbor and it was good, but not a champion.

 

The RV is a close friend of largeprime's and has built many.

 

I CLEARLY stated that each person should do his own research, just be wary.

 

As far as multisource goes, for all except the offset belcranks, rolled not cut landing gear rod and landing gear struts, we do pretty much have two sources, the approved suppliers/some unapproved ones and out of our workshops.

 

We have made almost all of our parts with a drill press, belt/disk sander, Band saw, and a welder

 

As far as the weight specs go, Nats are pretty darn close, not perfect, but pretty darn close.

[CBarber]

Dust, with all due respect....HOGWASH. I agree with Marc. To mostly state the extreme cases is a disservice to all and diminishes credibility. I hope you are above that. I am all for being loyal to you chosen plane, but you do not need to do so at the expense of others especially with such a strong platform as the Cozy. There are planes that take many years to complete, others literally take months. I visited a Velocity last month at SWRFI that was built in less than a year by an amateur...true, he was retired. But by using your method ALL Velocity's can be built that fast (you just used the other extreme)...to add to that argument, I have mostly completed my Velocity fuselage in a few hundred hours, I still have a way to go, but based on my personal experience it goes fast. Ok, I have no kids or other like obligation other than continued “honydo’s”, so I can make time to build…also, my hanger is really my two car garage so all I have to do is walk out my kitchen and start building……SWEET! Also, I know the devil (and time) is in the detail (right John?) I feel my quality has not suffered as Gary Hunter (Flying Exxon Tiger Crew Chief...Composite Guru) did my first Tech Inspections and deemed it "Very Conscientious"

 

I am still surprised at this insistence that kit or plans are “faster” per se. Such broad generalizations can be a problem....it like watching the Rodney King video and declaring all cops are bad. I cannot imagine how anyone could attribute speed of build to any primary factor other than the individual builder. There are many secondary factors. There are those who want a perfect plane and may take 10 years to complete and then may be afraid to fly it. I on the other hand want a GOOD, SOLID plane that I feel safe in to fly somewhat soon, NOT a perfect plane I only dream of flying.

 

Concerning performanc.....can we say "marketing"...I knew we could. Agreed, do your research and take it all with a grain of salt. Then enjoy your plane.

 

IMHO, this is the kewlest, or even the coolest, hobby going, but it does not need to be a competition as to “my plane’s better than yours…nnnaaannnaaahhhhh. We all made decisions that should meet our personal needs and desires. Most did not make it lightly. To me this is obvious and I will be happy to exchange rides with you if I ever finish…and you can wait NINE years for me to build it....I like building so much, I paid extra for the slow build kit

 

Oh, you are still very entertaining

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[Wayne Hicks]

Dust, with all due respect....DOUBLE HOGWASH. Your data may not be wrong, but I'm afraid you don't have ENOUGH data points to produce a REPRESENTATIVE data curve. As a data point that 9,000-hour Glassair is at least 3 sigma out. Telling someone to go suck an egg just because you're angry is more than 3 sigma out.

 

Be careful what you present on this list. People use this list (and other lists) to form their opinions about the Cozy and the people who build and fly them. I'm just hoping the uninitiated can tell fact from fiction.

 

Wayne Hicks

Cozy Plans #678

[John Slade]

Oops. Did I say I agreed with you, Dust? I must have scanned your post too fast. I havent built a kit, but think you're probably way off the average with your examples.

 

For someone who wants an airplane as fast as possible, the fast-build kits and/or factory assistance programs are an excellent plan. But - as someone said - the devil is in the details. Building an airframe from plans is fairly quick and easy. Assembling a bunch of kit parts to make the same airframe may be a little quicker, and may well leave you with less finishing (i.e. sanding & filling) to do.

 

But I'd bet that assembling parts is'nt nearly as satisfying as hot wiring the foam and making them yourself. It's also much more expensive. Keep in mind that I started off as someone who just wanted an airplane. I planned to buy a bunch of prefab parts, but found that the self build was fun, cheap, satisfying, and almost as quick as the prefab part delivery times.

 

Once you have an airframe, either assembled or built, that's when the fine detail work starts and the expense begins. You're probably one third of the way there in both time and money. Most builders seem to slow down a lot at this point. I sure did. My point is that I think that, without the factory assistance program, many kits put you pretty much in the same boat as plans at this point.

[dust]

Triple hog wash.

 

I am not an airport bum, but i have met a few builders, personally, and I gave the facts, FACTS, as i know them. Therefore, I am not wrong.

 

In the same post I clearly said

 

"The cozy is a "fast build" airplane! Just talk to real people on all planes you are looking at and you will find out the real story!

 

Make sure you love the cozy before you start the build, because if you don't, do not build it, you won't finish it and will have to post to "reasons not to build thread".

 

If your dream is an aluminum airplane or a wooden airplane or a stol airplane, then eat the 4000 to 9000 hours and do it. Build what you want and finish it.

 

 

My advice is clear, don't believe me, believe those who have built the plane you are looking at.

 

Now, if we need to form a committee and hold hearings, please tell me when and where and I will supply the committee with the names and addresses of all of my witnesses and present my evidence. I did not squew the facts, i presented all of them, as i know them. I will swear to this on a stack of cozy plans/news letters and rutan instruction videos.

[CBarber]

That is kinda my point, it is an opinion based on your relevant (to you) but limited experience/exposure. I agree, love the plane you build, RV-10, Velocity, Cozy, Barracuda or whatever. MY opinion is that your opinion is based on a gross gereralization.

 

I admire your loyalty to your craft, but this is almost like the Windows v Mac or the Word v WordPerfect debate. Entertaining, but pointless. Yeah, easily let go, but I had to inject something.....if for no other reason, as you seem to elude to, I am a lawyer.

 

(Oxymoron for the day....ethical attorney.)

 

As usual, YMMV (your milage may vary)

 

All the best,

 

Chris

After one year and 4 days of project ownership

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

[dust]

Didn't know you are an attorney, just makin a point.

 

I made my decision from a pretty picture in kitplanes and the specs there presented, i got real lucky to have picked this plane, as i would later find out.

 

Ifin someone doesn't like my data points, then go find more, but I am not wrong and I don't lie or change the facts to suite my purpose. So all those who imply or say that i do can "go suck an egg".

 

I try to present info on this forum that is usefull to all lookers and truthfull. There are many misconceptions out in the world of plane building and the kit vrs plans is one of them.

 

The point is this

 

A plane takes a range of time to build and it is NOT dependant on wether it is a "kit" or "plans"

 

Most uninformed think that all kits are faster than all plans, simply not true.

[CBarber]

.....A plane takes a range of time to build and it is NOT dependant on wether it is a "kit" or "plans"

 

Most uninformed think that all kits are faster than all plans, simply not true.....

 

AGREED.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

Remember there are only three lawyer jokes....the rest are true stories

[Nat Puffer]

Would like to comment on building time for plans vs kits and also empty weight for the Mark IV

Build time:

I have personally built 5 composite airplanes from plans. These were always part-time, either while working for 3M or drawing up plans and instructions for builders, helping builders, writing newsletters, etc. All were built in 2 years or less. I estimate 2500 hours on the 4 place models, and I was not able to buy pre-fab cowlings, turtlebacks, or other prefab parts.

Phoenix Composites is located at Falcon Field. They assemble Glasairs, and maybe occasionally some other kits. I stopped by to watch. The Glasair is a very complicated design. The wings must be assembled in one piece from skins, ribs, baffles, spars, hardware, fuel tanks, etc. They use dedicated jigs. I asked Dace Kirk how many hours it takes them to assemble a 2-place Glasair. He said about 3500 hours and they charge about $130,000 for labor and on up. This is with experienced labor and dedicated jigs.

One of our builders used to work for a shop that assembled Lancairs. I asked him about his experience. He said that putting a Lancair together from a prefab kit took 4,000 to 5,000 hours, and cost from $400,000 to $500,000. He must have been talking about the 4-place Lancair IV, but that is what we are comparing the Mark IV to, right?

So we think that 2,500 hours for a Cozy Mark IV is a realistic figure (more so that pre-fab suppliers advertise), and less than most pre-fab kits, whether 2 or 4 place. I can't believe that some people would think that 2,500 is too long a time for a 4-place.

Empty weight:

Airplanes always increase in weight after the initial weight and balance. The weight on the dataplate is the weight before the first flight. Builders usually make their first flight before installing wheel pants, spinner, etc. Some even before painting or upholstery. In our case, the empty weight was 1050 lbs before wheel pants, before spinner, before lower winglets, and before the fancy upholstery job that Alexander Aircraft talked me into, with headliner, armrest padding, carpets, etc. I am sure we have added at least 50 lbs since our initial weighing. I have gradually thrown out parts of the upholstery. Be careful what you put in your airplane!

Best regards,

Nat

[CBarber]

Nat,

 

Thanks for the input. I think you illustrate one of the problems with professionals billing only by the hour. It may encourage inefficiency, especially with complex designs/issues. It is a needed option when you have no idea as to the potential scope and time involved (such as many ugly lawsuits or a NEW plane design), but not on things that have a ascertainable, known process and goal (even if it does take a while). The opposite is true when flat fees (or quasi flat fees) are charged based on past experiences.

 

Most of the amateur builders I can think of take pride in being efficient and cost effective. Of course amateur builders and a pro-builders motives are very different.

 

However, it would seem, that for some, marketing has gotten in the way of, uh…... complete accuracy.

 

FWIW.

 

All the best,

Chris

[dust]

However, it would seem, that for some, marketing has gotten in the way of, uh…... complete accuracy.

 

Now what EXACTLY does this mean???

 

Why don't you go do some real research and come back with REAL numbers from builders, instead of accusations.

 

I didn't start this thread with the idea of mudslinging, I started it for learning purposes. So I quoted FACTS I know, Nat Quoted Facts he knows, so where are your facts???????????

[CBarber]

Dust,

 

That was NOT in anyway meant to be an accusations or condemnation of anyone on this list. GEEEZ. Actually, it was a restatement of what I THOUGHT you were saying. That often times the numbers stated in marketing for time (or whatevefr else) to build were very optomistic. I regret that I find you so touchyg. NO offense was inteded.....but I guess I will now have to walk on egg shells (from all those you told folks to suck)

 

I regret you choose to see the worst meaning in a post. I will consider myself "on notice"

 

Chris

[John Slade]

Nat said:

I have gradually thrown out parts of the upholstery. Be careful what you put in your airplane!

 

I understand that the plane fly's better with a low weight. My theory is that I'm ahead about 50lbs on a lot of builders (probably closer to 80lb on Hicks ). I plan to spend a lot of time in the plane and I don't want it spartan. I'll trade comfort for a little performance. Can't wait to find out what my empty weight is..... hope I have room for a few gallons of fuel.

 

Installed most of a large cow this morning....

 

Mike - calm down, buddy. Go suck a Zoloft!

[dust]

I apologize, don't usually take things the negative way. Your statement was made right after nat's, so I thought you were directly calling nat a liar.

 

I don't mind just about anything, but people calling me or people i trust a liar just rubs me wrong.

 

Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Sorry

[CBarber]

I regret either of us misunderstood or mistated in any way.

 

All the best,

 

Chris:)

[John Slade]

Mike,

Did you type those sorry's, or were they cut & pasted?

 

Email and forums have increased communications dramatically, but they still cause confusion once in a while. Best solution I know is to air the confusion, then it blows away.

[marbleturtle]

... not only that, but it showed a certain self proclaimed expert was wrong again! (I've been asked not to mention his name, something about unnecessary ridicule, whining to the moderator, forum eticut surveys, et. al.)

 

Dust, I go away for a week and look at the trouble you get into. I would have had fun backing you up on this one!

[Aaron]

We see this all the time in car-related forums. We see Audi VS. BMW, which performance chip is better, etc.

 

People get emotionally invested in their purchases and they feel the need to prove they made THE right choice.

 

Bottom line is there are LOTs of great choices out there. Some are good for Dust, some are good for CBarber, hopefully one is good for me (anyone know the Lotto numbers today?).

 

I know of one Cozy Builder who, after 5 years, got tired and decided to use some AeroCanard parts. His plane, his choice. He tells me that other Cozy personalities have looked at his plane, wrinkled their nose, and said "Nice looking plane, except for that turtleback." Way to be supportive.

 

Instead of saying the other choices are wrong, lets try to understand why the builder made that choice.

[dust]

I said

 

"Make sure you love the cozy before you start the build, because if you don't, do not build it, you won't finish it and will have to post to "reasons not to build thread".

 

If your dream is an aluminum airplane or a wooden airplane or a stol airplane, then eat the 4000 to 9000 hours and do it. Build what you want and finish it."

 

I thought I might REPEAT this as it seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

 

My advice put in a clearer way is

 

DON'T BELIEVE SALES CLAIMS FOR ANY PLANE, COZY OR OTHER, check it out with real builders that are flying, preferably. How long did they take, what is the real cruise speed, what are the directions/plans like.

 

Ok, so maybe i should have used 1000 hours instead 4000, BUT, that doesn't matter, because if the proper research is done, you will find that out for yourself.

 

I was trying to make a point buy using real numbers that people that have built airplanes that I personally know and that is why I used the 4000.

 

I also tried to dispel the notion that all plans built planes take longer to build than all kits and that, quite simply, is not true.

 

ENJOY THE BUILD