Jack Kretmar Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Regarding rotary engines, does anyone know the compression ratio of the following; a normally aspirated R13B, a turbocharged one and the new Renesis non-turbocharged one? What is it for a Lycomming 360? Quote Jack Kretmar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 aircraft engines, generally, normally aspirated 8:1, turboed, 7.5 :1 Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 For the rotary engines: Year| Engine |Compression |Rotor weight Non-Turbo 79-82 12A 9.4 10.15 lbs 83-85 12A 9.4 9.60 lbs 84-85 13B 9.4 11.58 lbs 86-88 13B 9.4 10.04 lbs 89-91 13B 9.7 9.54 lbs Turbo 87-88 13B 8.5 10.04 lbs 89-91 13B 9.0 9.54 lbs 93-95 13B 9.0 9.54 lbs Lifted w/o permission for Atkins Rotary website: http://www.atkinsrotary.com/enginepart.htm Renesis is 9.7:1 and the rotors weigh in at approx 8.2 lbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Turns out those renesis numbers are still a bit flaky...I'm about 75% sure of the compression ratio and about 90% sure on the rotor weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Note that it's possible, and can be quite advantageous, to use na rotors in a turbo installation. My '93 turbo has the 9.7 rotors. The engine experts I've spoken too say this might be a problem at 10,000 rpm, but at 6000 rpm it'll give me a few more HP with lower boost without causing any problems. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 John, you stole my idea Actually I hope to use renesis rotors for the same thing, they're about 1.5 lbs lighter. That may not seem like much, but in terms of rotation energy at 6000 rpm it's huge. Less stress on the bearings, apex seals, and stationary gears. Of course, I'm not 98% done So whens the first flight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodles Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Has anyone purchased the overhaul kits from Tracy's site. I noticed that it runs from 500-1000 for the basic and master packages. This seems like a lot of cash. Is this kit necesary? I would think that most of the components can be picked up at Autozone or some equivalent. Quote Cozy IV project. Redheaded Stepchild of The Canard Community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Aaron, I'm not sure the new rotors will fit the old motor, besides - why would you want to do that. Just get a complete renesis engine, then add a turbo - should get you LOTS of power - much more than a Cozy IV can use and still stay below mach 2. When's the first flight? The day after it's done. Seriously, here's an update I posted in homebuiltaircraft.com recently: The plane is basically ready to fly except a few minor cosmetic items and the engine setup. I'm missing a GPS and the engine monitor. The upholstery, intake and EFI computer wiring will be done this week, then it will be time to take her down to the hanger. It shouldn't take more than a few weeks for the assembly and final engine configuration. I'm hoping for engine start by the end of June (which is when the engine monitor is promised). After that it's engine setup & testing, taxi testing and debugging. Maybe by Mid July she'll be ready - Great planning - If the engine cools ok in mid-july Florida weather I'm all set. Chances are it won't, and I'll need to make a few modifications, maybe add a P51 scoop here or there. At least the epoxy will set quick. Nathan, >This seems like a lot of cash. Tracy's prices are usually very competitive. I don't think you'll get many parts from Autozone - you'll have to go to the Mazda dealer and they're not cheap. Oil seals, apex seals and gaskets for this engine are very expensive items wherever you go. Getting stuff from Tracy ensure's that you're getting the right stuff for our purpose, and the more business we can all feed his way the better for all of us. The man just won't stop innovating. Personally, I wouldn't even think about doing the rebuild myself unless I was a highly experienced mazda engineer. Sure, we can learn anything, but why bother (and spend the time) when you have an expert like Bruce Turrentine out there who'll do a superb job for a few k and let you get on with the airframe building stuff. Even Tracy Crook, who installed one of the first flying rotaries, got his new engine from Bruce. On top of that - a word of warning - installing a rotary is NOT an inexpensive proposition. Don't get into it if you're objective is saving up front cash. Maintenance cash, yes. Cash flow, yes because you don't have to plop for a large lump at once. Initial investment, no. By the time this sucker's running I will have more invested in it than I would have had in a low time LYC IO360. Either way, airplane engines are not for the feint of wallet. Think of the cost of a homebuilt this way - Airframe cost - one third Avionics cost - one third Engine cost - one third In the case of a Cozy, expect each to cost you around $15k. That's my 3c for the morning. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 John, The renesis is intruiging, but you have to build in a certain amount of caution when getting specs from mazda's marketing. The power quoted (250 hp) is at 8000 rpm. These engines are very linear in power output, if they're anything like the other engines in the 13B series. Stock you'll have around 190 Hp at 6000 RPM. Of course the turbo will add some back, but there are other considerations you'll need to worry about. One thing that worries me is the idle. In the past, Peri-port engines have been very tricky to get to idle properly, which is why they're used in racing applications where Idle doesnt matter. Mazda solved this with some new engine management software, it may take Tracy some time to duplicate that. The other thing is availability-Every street racer out there is trying to get their hands on a Renesis, all I need to do is order 2 rotors from Mazda. By the time I'm ready for it I hope these concerns will be addressed. I'll be looking to your plane to solve some of the more basic concerns of fuel delivery , cooling, and anything else that crops up (like how to implode a strake, you never know when that skill might come in handy Anyhow we should take this out of the coffe house before the ol' timers start calling us nuts again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodles Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Seriously, here's an update I posted in homebuiltaircraft.com recently: [Nathan] www.homebuiltaircraft.com , this link isn’t working John. maybe add a P51 scoop here or there. [Nathan] You cold always do you runups without your cowling on. Nathan, >This seems like a lot of cash. Tracy's prices are usually very competitive. [Nathan] He’s also a fair individual, I just don’t know how those little gaskets add up to $500. I’ take your word on it for now. Getting stuff from Tracy ensure's that you're getting the right stuff for our purpose, and the more business we can all feed his way the better for all of us. The man just won't stop innovating. Which is why I plan on purchasing his kits and components, it’s like getting Paul Newman’s Salad dressing, you know the money is going to a good cause. Personally, I wouldn't even think about doing the rebuild myself unless I was a highly experienced mazda engineer. [Nathan] I always thought that was interesting about you John. I figure these things are idiot proof and if you can install an AC unit in a Cozy you can replace o-rings in a 13B. On the other hand if it takes me 2 years to complete this thing, it may be wise to consider the Renesis. Will see, I just don’t want to drop all my coins on the 13B just to see the new kid on the block with his Renesis. Sure, we can learn anything, but why bother (and spend the time) when you have an expert like Bruce Turrentine out there who'll do a superb job for a few k and let you get on with the airframe building stuff. [Nathan] What’s the average price for his services? Even Tracy Crook, who installed one of the first flying rotaries, got his new engine from Bruce. [Nathan] I haven’t talked to Tracy, but I would feel that this is a time issue not the lack of skill ”On top of that - a word of warning - installing a rotary is NOT an inexpensive proposition. Don't get into it if you're objective is saving up front cash. Maintenance cash, yes. Cash flow, yes because you don't have to plop for a large lump at once. Initial investment, no. By the time this sucker's running I will have more invested in it than I would have had in a low time LYC IO360.” [Nathan] This investment actual depends on how long you plan on having your plane. It’s not that great of an investment when you consider many folks don’t like seeing an “Auto engine” in the back of a perspective aircraft. If you fly your airplane long enough the maintenance cost you are avoiding will eventually pay for the engine, and the possibility that you may have to remove it some day to sell the plane. I know that many of us don’t plan on selling their planes, but this possibility has arisen with many builders. Either way, airplane engines are not for the feint of wallet. Think of the cost of a homebuilt this way - ”Airframe cost - one third Avionics cost - one third Engine cost - one third In the case of a Cozy, expect each to cost you around $15k.” [Nathan] This cold cruel fact has begun etching itself into my fun money plan. The first 20-30K can be justified the last 15K will be the big push. I’ve explained this to my girlfriend, and the fact that she may have to work an extra job to get me an EFIS/One. It might be time to trade the GTI in. ;( Is any of this tax deductable? Quote Cozy IV project. Redheaded Stepchild of The Canard Community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 >this lick isn’t working John. You're supposed to click on it, not lick it. Try http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/ Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 15/15/15 is a reasonable number, but, the 15/15 can be trimmed allot with judicious use of salvage yards. Probably 15/8/8 Mike Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 >I'll be looking to your plane to solve some of the more basic >concerns of fuel delivery , cooling, So will I. >like how to implode a strake, That's cruel. Picking on a guy when he's down like that. I didnt have to put that story on the web site for everyone to laugh at, now did I? [if you missed it see chapter 21 Funny you should mention that - one of my most rewarding experiences with the web site was sitting at dinner during sun & fun listening to other builders trading punch lines about they're favorite stories in my web site. Chrissi's was the one about me leaving some bugs in the paint "as a warning to other bugs". I think it was Jerry who like the story about the cats getting stuck in the epoxy - no I correct myself - it was the "snow in Florida" painting story. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 >if you can install an AC unit in a Cozy you can replace o-rings in a 13B. Sure, but the AC wont stop the fan running and spoil my underwear. When it comes to the engine I'm being ultra cautious. >What’s the average price for his services? I'm not sure, but I think you can get a complete rebuilt engine for <$5k >a time issue not the lack of skill Certainly. It's important to focus if you want to finish such a complex project. >folks don’t like seeing an “Auto engine” in the back of a >perspective aircraft. Perhaps. I think that'll change. No way I'm selling my plane anyway. >the last 15K will be the big push. Nah. $15k in 2 years wont hurt you a bit. >she may have to work an extra job to get me an EFIS/One. Get the airplane flying, then get lost a couple of times. >Is any of this tax deductable? Sure. You just have to figure out how. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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