Steve Davies Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Ayup, it does seem logical that the welds would induce cracks... clamps would be my choice too. Easier to inspect, eh? Hmmm, I'm wondering how high I'll end up flying though... I need to have more data on temps at alt. Completely irrelevant this statement... I'm enjoying the hockey sticks outta this, and I haven'y satrted building yet! Quote Steve TANSTAAFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Firstly I guess it depends where you fly. The standard drop in temperature is accepted at 2'Centigrade per 1,000 feet climbed. So if you are flying out of Florida when it is 30'C, it should only be 10'C at 10,000 feet, possibly higher with an inversion. Whereas down here in winter it commonly drops to -5'C at sea level, so at 10,000 feet it should be -15'C. The Piper Senecas and Chieftans actualy have an avgas furnace behind the passenger seats to warm the cabin. Crazy imho. I really don't like the heater muff at all, especaily the welded version. Even the clamped on type is dangerous imho. If you get water in there, then the hot exhaust will accelerate the rusting process. Fine if you can check it regularly, but it might be difficult to remove for inspection. I'm not really interested in getting Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Electric pants for me. Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 Ok, so here are my choices heat muff with air by naca or by blower liquid with radiators eithor part of oil cooling system or independent hot air from turbo system electric clothes Thats the whole list isn't it? enjoy the build, don't modify:confused: Dust Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Davies Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Dang... I s'pose safest and lightest is gonna be the hotsuit, tho I kind of find the idea of plugging my socks in a little disappointing. Ah well, what can ya do... It'll get figgered out when its time, no rush. Quote Steve TANSTAAFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I used to have a little 12volt kettle element that you dip into a mug to make a nice cup of tea whilst on the road. If it was fitted inside an insulated metal tube, with a small 12volt car dashboard fan, and connected to a variable resistor, would that work? Any good? Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Patterson Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Some of the new cars costing $45,000 have heaters in the seats...........I do not own one of these, but have been in one. I just put a 50 amp Alternator , on my C172, so I could have power for "Laptop" and spot lights. Seems that ought to be able to put out enough power for heaters. Quote Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip. What Do YOU Want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Some of the new cars costing $45,000 have heaters in the seats My '89 Saab 9000 Turbo has heated seats, but I dont use them much down here in S FL. If you can find a Saab 9000, or perhaps even a 900 in a breakers yard perhaps you could remove the heaters. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Patterson Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Just tell me where you park yours................. Quote Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip. What Do YOU Want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 Elec seats, mmmmmm, they are needed here in mi if you have leather seats. Just to put this conversation into perspective, OAT = -30 F Wife = better be warm enjoy the build Dust Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Sower Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Rather than a heat muff (cracks, CO, difficult to get it to the cabin, etc.) if I had an air cooled engine I would use low pressure oil for cabin heat. Get a small heat exchanger (like the power steering coolers on many american cars), or perhaps something a little more elaborate (like the smallest oil cooler you can by). Put an array of tubing in the oil pan (properly lashed down) - about 4 passes should be more than enough. Bring the tubing out of the pan fairly high (at the about 5 qt level) and plumb it through a small electric pump to the "oil cooler". Fill the system with low viscosity oil (like ATF) and you're ready to go. Bilge air blower will recirculate cabin air throught the heat exchanger while the little electric oil pump is on circulating the oil. Very few, vary benign failure modes: Plumbing leaks outside the pan (in the cabin) - you lose a pint or so of ATF; Plumbing leaks inside the pan - you dilute your engine oil with a pint or so of ATF; Oil pump or air blower failure - you get cold; leak where tubing penetrates oil pan - you lose the oil above the 5 qt or so level (but it would make a big mess before it leaked as much as a cup). Simple, not terribly difficult to install, pretty cheap, weighs maybe 4 or 5 lbs. Just a theory .... Quote ...Destiny's Plaything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Davies Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 OK I'm missing something.. (MY PLANS) Where are the holes/leaks making this cold cabin air? What about boots, insulation, some way to cver these leaks... Umm OK I think I'll shut my mouth til I have plans in hand and can speak to the issue with out guessing. Quote Steve TANSTAAFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 Personal preference, with out an open mind, oil system is sacred and will not be touched, not one extra fiting allowed enjoy the build dust Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleturtle Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 ... there's something about plugging in my drawers to an electrical current that makes me a little uncomfortable. Quote This ain't rocket surgery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Sower Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by dust Personal preference, with out an open mind, oil system is sacred and will not be touched, not one extra fiting allowed OK. To each his own. But my system makes NO intrusion into the engine oil system. It merely takes advantage of the hot oil in the pan to heat another passive oil circulation system. No engine oil leaves the engine. The lubrication system you have in place is not touched or modified in any way. Anyway, electric britches seem to be an option although I don't know what you do with them when you get out of the airplane. Wear them to the business meeting you were going to? Roam around Sun-Fun or whatever in your electric jump suit? Looking at the BTU you'd need out of an electric cockpit heater and converting it to watts could make for a pretty substantial load on your electrical system. Seems best to look for a heat source that's already there. Which brings you back to heat muff. Quote ...Destiny's Plaything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 OK so i didn't look at your system good enough, you know closed mind syndrom, hard to shake, no matter how hard i try enjoy the build dust Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckthedog Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Jim, Dust, Go to www.gerbing.com read about their products first. Then comment. It will tell you, watts, current draw, all that stuff. I use the liner and socks. The socks plug into the liner the liner hooks into the controler. It is just one plug. Like your portable gps. Quote If the phone don't ring. It's me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mplafleur Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 My wife isn't going to go for any plug-in. She want a warm nose, face and fingers. So do I for that matter. If I'm flying for hours, I want to be comfortable and I want good defrost. Don't need the window to frost up... I like my idea of a separate heat transfer coil in the sump. Use a separate pump and a monovalve to restrict flow into a radiator. This all depends on the room in the bottom of the pan. What's the optimal tube size and number of loops. I can understand if someone doesn't want to be the prototype. Quote Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155N68ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckthedog Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 A little food for thought. Dust, I'm sure you Know how cold it has been lately. Let's see 0 degrees F + No 4's figures for cooling at altitude, and say 5000 AGL feet. That figures out to. Colder than a welldiggers back side in the Klondike. + or - a few degrees. Anyhow from my experiance. You have to have a LOT of hot air volume or cold air on the canopy to keep it clear. If not, it will cause condensation on the inside of the canopy. Not a good thing. I don't use this system for high altitude flying . I use it so I can fly year around. Well enough preechen. As you say. Enjoy the build. MP, Will she put on headphones? Same thing. Quote If the phone don't ring. It's me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mplafleur Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Well, the headphones will help keep the ears warm! Quote Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155N68ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 First of all, i'm the first to agree with you that you are right. I am a diferent kind of builder, i don't plan on boring holes in the sky, just going places and many of those places will be a long way away. I plane on 1600 to scottsdale once a month, every darn month, i have grandkids there and i currently see them EVERY 4 to 8 weeks, that will drop down to every 3 to 4 weeks I have a nephew 150 miles away, i'll see him weekly or biweekly I want SPEED and there are two ways to do that GO HIGH Change Planes and go to 300hp Its going to be dammmmmmmmmmmmmmn cold up there and i will figure out a way to make it comfy. I have lots of heat in da back, just need to get it to the front, he he he it wouldn't surprise me that i use both the elec cloths and the extra heat enjoy the build dust Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Sower Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 The electric clothes are a pretty smart current drain, and a HELLISH $-drain!! That money would buy an electric nose lift. And what do you do when you get where you're going? How far can you walk in those $60 socks before you screw up the circuity? I'll still have to go with heat that's already there and has to be rejected somewhere anyway. The more passive and benign the better. I've flown really cold airplanes and I don't need to do that again. Heat muff, passive oil, whatever, but no electric briches for me. Quote ...Destiny's Plaything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckthedog Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Jim, suit yourself thats cool. HE HE. I do question your math. $200 for liner Jacket only, $60 socks, They are not glued on. You can take them off. Control $70 to turn the heat down down. full power not needed. $ 45 for Hot grip + control. to turn it down too. Total $375 + 2 for copilot $750. I think my nose lift with AEX was around $1400. Sorta close. PS. B 29's Did not fly out of Iwo Jima. It was Fighter escourts there. It was an emergincy landing alternet. FYI. My father Flew with the 78th fighter squadron, based there. Quote If the phone don't ring. It's me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Pierce Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I found this interesting solution to the heating problem with a small electric heater for the cozy. Looks like a simple way to keep "the one who must be obeyed" warm in flight. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/composite_aircraft_accessories/Heaters.htm Best Wishes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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