Staying Warm in a Canard

[TES111]

I was @ the in-laws house this weekend and they are remodeling thier bathroom. He showed me what they had in store for the heating of the new edition.

 

http://www.warmlyyours.com/

 

Would something like this work? I don't know at this point. I'm wating to hear back from the Sales weasle on specs for current draw ect. ect. If it is to much draw than they do have water based radiant heating systems. Mayybe you could hook it up to the exhaust and pump it some how. Just a thought.

 

Tes111

[TES111]

10 watts per sq ft./ 34 BTU's per sq. ft./ draw is 3 amps @ 110v/ cost for a roll of 48 sq ft. is $600.00 U.S. They have used these in boats and RV's before.

[JakeC]

TES111,

 

Do you know what the weight of this stuff is? How thick is it? I wonder how hot it would heat the surface it is laying against. I would hate to melt the bottom out of my aircraft at 10,000 feet (or 20 feet for that matter) . Since it's free, I sent for a sample of the material. Should be here in a couple of weeks. Seems like it might be simpler than ducting air. If only it could cool as well.

 

Jake

[TES111]

wire temp is 120 deg. The weight is next to nothing. per sq ft is best geuss an 1/2 oz. If that. However they recomend 1/4" light weight gypsum to cover the heating element as this acts as your radiator. So my best guess @ a combined weight per complete sq ft. would be a pound. lets say you just do the floor area in the plane. That area is lets say 25 sq. ft. 25 sq ft. x 34 BTU per sq.ft.= 850 BTU's of cabin heat @ a weight gain of 25 lbs. If you incorporate the fuselage as a whole who knows what you could accomplish BTU wise. Is this to much draw on the elctrical system? Don't know as I am not an electrician and not very knowlagable about aircraft electrical systems. As far as the temperature of the light weight gyp crete at full temp dont know. However it is not designed to make you instantly start thinking "hot feet, hot feet" when you walk into your bath room. So I don't suspect that it will cause damage to your plane Speed gains might be possible as well. Do you not need additional ducting on the exterior for heated air systems? Dont know this one either as I have not yet built my Cozy.

[chuckthedog]

The socks and wind breaker work the same way, and are set up for 12volts DC. Its not your ass that gets cold. It's the feet and neck, and arms. The wind breaker, socks, wireing, and thermostat cost 1/3 the floor stuff. It won't short out when you wet yourself from flying nonstop 7 hours at 25,000 feet with the Turbocharged wonder motor from Japan. Don't tell me. When you land you have to find a place to get rid of all the fuel it maks on high altitude flights.

[chuckthedog]

One mor thing. 25 pounds! Are you NUTS? These are planes not cargo ships!

Rutan says " If you think you need it in the plane. Pick it up and drop it, if it falls. It weighs too much"

Trust MOM. Take your coat with you before you go out.

[TES111]

Well? As far a shorting out- It is designed to work well in bathrooms. Including showers. I do not think it will short out. As far as the pound per Sq. Ft.- I am sure that it actually weighs less than a pound. I was over exaggerating the for "worst case" purposes. If you know of a "Turbocharged wonder motor from Japan." please do tell us were you got it. I would love to put one in my Cozy. Right now the only engine I have is the jet engine that I built. However it does not make its own fuel. Thanks for the gripe. I love to hear from actual builders on my crazy ideas for heating an airplane.

 

TES111

[JakeC]

If you know of a "Turbocharged wonder motor from Japan." please do tell us were you got it. I would love to put one in my Cozy.

Yeah, it's the Mazda rotary. Three moving parts and tough as nails. Won't make fuel though!

 

I definitely think the gypsum would be WAY too heavy. If it would work with like a light weight speaker box carpet glued over it or a much lighter radiating materiel than I would be interested. I've got a LONG way to go before I need to worry about it though. Maybe you could do some tests for us?

 

Jake

[TES111]

As soon as the builder gets over to my in-laws with the materials, I am going to have them pour a 1 ft. sq. sample with all materials. i want to verify actual weight. As soon as I get it on a scale I will let you guys know.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by TES111

As soon as the builder gets over to my in-laws with the materials, I am going to have them pour a 1 ft. sq. sample with all materials. i want to verify actual weight. As soon as I get it on a scale I will let you guys know.

So I've been following this discussion and have to speak up. You guys are talking about heating your airplane with electricity, coming from the alternator. The largest alternator you'll be able to install is about a 120 Amp, and most of the ones installed on COZY aircraft are 40 - 60 Amp. This gives you 720 Watts of heat IF YOU HAVE NO OTHER ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS TURNED ON.

 

720 watts (or 600 watts, as delivered by Bill Theeringer's hair dryer derived electric auxiliary heater) will NOT heat a COZY in the winter. It will be (and Bill advertises it as) a purely auxiliary heater to complement the stock system and provide localized heating to the foot area. Bill's heater weighs a pound or two, can be mounted anywhere, needs no structural changes, and provides heat where you need it.

 

The "radiant floor heating" idea using electricity is, to put it mildly, extremely silly. It will weigh a ton, be difficult to install, require many mods to the structure and construction, and worst of all, not work.

 

Chuckthedog's heated suit is a far more intelligent use of electricity for primary heating purposes, although it requires that everyone in the plane wear special clothing.

 

There are many far more reasonable methods of providing copious heat to the cabin - electric space heating is about the worst method you could begin to contemplate.

 

Please, people, try to think about the physics and thermodynamics of a situation before getting into proposed solution spaces - what's the problem, and what KIND of solutions might work efficiently?

[chuckthedog]

The jacket liner at full power draws 77 watts. 6 amps and change. The socks draw 22 watts full power. Not even 2 amps. When you get warm you will dial down the amps. In the summer months you won't need the socks. I take the wind breaker just in case. It looks just like a regular wind breaker. It runs off the battery with a 10 amp fuse before the reostat. I tried the plans method. it may work in Mojave, but mot Michigan. I also tried the space heater. It won't even keep your toes warm. Makes radio noise. Tried to ware Snow mobile suite and felt pacs on feet. Hard to get in and out of plane. When you fly south around Mason Dixon line land take off stuff, store for return trip. Takes up lots of space. As for plugging in. You put on head phones, and buckle up seat belts. Whats one more little plug?

[TES111]

Draw is 3 amps @ 110v (total). the idea behind the radiant floor system is that the gyp. crete acts as a radiator. Therfore you do not need alot of current the wire temp heats the surrounding gyp. to a reasonable temperature. 700 watts? Difficult to install? You simply put it on the floor and cover it with gyp. crete. Break out you measuring tape. 1/4" is thin. the radiant system is very thin maybe a 1/16" thick. So your looking @ 9/16" for overall thickness. I,m not suggesting you cover the entire interior of the plane with stuff. Maybe the arm rests and foot areas?

 

The jacket liner at full power draws 77 watts. 6 amps and change.

 

socks draw 22 watts full power. Not even 2 amps

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Total amps of Clothing =7+ amps

 

 

vs.

 

Total amps of radiant system no matter how many sq. ft. you decide to install =3 amps

 

 

Hmmm:confused: Im doing the math but my numbers seem funny:)

 

As far as having to convince everyone that we are simply going on a ride in my plane not competeing in the iditarod, That seems silly. Just doesnt seem like its the best way to do it. Somebody out there has a working light weight system. What is it? I am not so conceited that I have to be right on this issue and admit it does sound silly. Maybe it will work. Maybe not. But there has to be a better route than saying "here, put on you electric suit dear." "No you look sexy, Thier not laughing at us." Don't let my wife see this or Cozy funding is out of the question and hello spam can with a waggly front wheel.

 

For those of you that maybe interested. I will build a sample and post a weight. I will also re-confirm the 3 amps is for the total draw. It would be nice to have a heated seat at least

 

Roasting chestnuts on a heated seat:D

 

Experiment: Get a 9 volt battery and connect the two poles (+) (-)

with a 16 ga. wire. that is 6" long. Same principal. Imagine 110 volt system.

 

Sorry if we have highjacked this thread.

 

TES111

[TES111]

Just out of curiosity how much would 4 suits weigh in at? 10 pounds? How much space would they take up if you were to take them off @ customs check in Florida?

[mplafleur]

My impression on the radiant floor heating is that it won't work. We used radiant floor heating on the last house we owned and built. Things to note:

 

1 - The lightweight gypsum is light compared to concrete, but that is all. It will add alot of weight.

 

2 - You will be heating the bottom of the plane which will have tremendous heat loss to the outside skin.

 

3 - It take a long time for the heat mass to warm up and the heat to rise/radiate up.

 

4 - If it needs 110V, then you will need an inverter.

 

Keep throwing out the ideas. All are welcome.

 

It reminds me of the company who's shipping dept was wasting time reading the old newspapers they used to pack their product with. The company formed a team to brainstorm ideas. One team member shouted (in jest) "poke their eyes out". As it was verbalized, it got written down with the other ideas. The companies final solution to their problem: Hire the blind. The moral; don't be afraid to speak up.

 

So I'll put out an idea that I just thought of. So I had not researched this yet. How about small infrared radiant heaters. They work well, but I don't know how small they get or what their current draw is.

[John Slade]

Total amps of radiant system no matter how many sq. ft. you decide to install =3 amps

Hmmm Im doing the math but my numbers seem funny

 

I think you forgot the old Power = Amps * Volts forumla?

i.e. amps and volts are inversly proportional.

3 amps at 110 volts = 27.5 amps at 12 volts.

 

I think Marc's right. Electric heating is NOT a viable solution unless you wear it. Oh, by the way, the "gypsom" might radiate heat nicely, but the energy has to come from somewhere first. A 30amp inverter will suck up a lot of juice and weigh in fairly heavy.

[dust]

what's wrong with my idea

 

1 increase duct for volume

 

2 increase heat muff for more heat transfer

 

3 naca scoop for increased flow

 

feedback welcome

[TES111]

I think Mike is right just beef up the current system. Remember.... K.I.S.S.

[LargePrime]

Dust;

I would imagine your needs are a bit more extreme than most cozy flyers. So if we can find a solution that works for you then others can take what works from it.

 

A Muff will deliver much more heat than any electrical system ever would. If we burn 8 gal/hr and half goes out the pipes and you get 10% from the muff on one pipe, you get 10-13K BTU/hr. If that’s not enough then get another muff! Even so it is not enough to warm fresh incoming air to room temp at your altitudes. You need a recirculation system. With a small fan you should be able to reheat the warmed cabin air and deliver as much heat as you need.

 

Whole cabin solutions have advantages I would guess. I would think some components or instrumentation would prefer to be warmer than no heat at 20k feet. I don’t know if condensation is an issue, but it very well could be on a decent. A warm dry cabin might be good.

 

More weight though. The lightest solution is probably the clothes. Assuming you where them anyway, no extra weight. The small amount of heat delivered is right next to the skin and the clothes insulate the heat, so it is way more effective (per BTU) at keeping the passengers warm than a "whole cabin" solution. Since the whole cabin is warm the cabin will lose less heat to the outside is real small.

 

Now for the disclamer.

I have never built any of this it is just an idea.

 

P.S.

Remember fluid flow through a tube is exponential to the cross section circle. A quarter again in every direction is much better than twice as tall.

[chuckthedog]

All I was doing was giving you was a SAFE, inexpensive way to stay warm. After 12 years of EXPERIMENTATION on trying to solve the problem. I thought this forum was to exchange information to save others from duplicating errors. I will continue to read you stuff. Good luck on your projects. Hope to see your birds flyin soon.

 

PS: Two things in flying don't count.

1. Runway behind you.

2. altatude above you.

[Dave Clifford]

Don't forget to close up ALL air leaks to make the best use of the available heat. This idea of "light weight" gypsum radiant floor heat is way off base and not realistic for our application and needs. JEEZ,,,,.(unless you want to have something to taxi the runways with!)

[TES111]

As I stated earlier I am not an electrician nor am I familiar with aircraft electrical systems. I am now realizing that Large, Mike and Mr Slade are closer to being on the mark. Chuck I am expressedly sorry if I offended you in any way. I just know my wife as well as my self. Suiting up is not an option. Not to say that it is a bad idea. It certainly seems like the quickest most cost effective way to solve the problem. I am a tinkering type of personality (jet engine builder) and cant help to think about a push button vs. plug in type of heating system. Thats why I think this forum helps any many ways. It definatley gives us BWB (builder wanna bes) a Much more clear picture as to what we can use in a homebuilt experimental plane. It puts people like me in close contact with people like you. The type of people that have dared to build a plane in thier homes and fly them. Despite all of my wacky ideas. I have the utmost addoration and respect to all those that have accomplished more than I have. I can only hope to improve upon your ideas to help push project builders to improve upon my concepts and experimentation.

 

Good luck all and good weather flying.

 

TES111