Affordable moving map?

[John Whalen]

In order to fly IFR you require instruments that meet the various minimum TSO standards. For example, you require a TSO 129C GPS for IFR operations and you require your altimeter and Mode C to be checked by a FAA approved testing agency.

The FAA doesnt specifically say you require certified instruments except for the GPS as in the case of Blue mountain Avionics who are not certifying their GPS but if you hook up VOR/ILS equipment that meets the TSO standard you can then get an inspector to sign off on you using it for IFR. That means with an inspectors concurrence you can use the uncertified Blue Mountain system provided you don't attempt any stuff with the GPS as sole means navigation as it is uncertified.

check the Blue Mountain Avionics website they had an opinion from the EAA written for them. Its on the discussion board under IFR equipment I think.

Others may have even more info on this question.

 

John

[John Whalen]

I knew I read it somewhere here is the link.

Hope this helps!

 

John

 

http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/_borders/IFR%20equipment.pdf

[Wayne Hicks]

I'll chime in here.

All the EFIS guys are waiting for the FAA's answer to "what defines a gyro."

 

Does a gyro need moving parts (like a moving inertial mass within a steam gage case)?

 

Or can it be a solid state device?

 

BMA, Dynon, Grand Rapids, and all the others are anxiously awaiting the FAA decision. Until then, you're going to be told you need gyros (the traditional kind) to meet the IFR gyroscopic requirements.

 

If anybody knows differently, I'm all ears.

 

============================

Wayne Hicks

Cozy IV Plans #678, Chapter 23 Engine and Cowls

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/waynehicks/index.html

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by marbleturtle

Is it required that you use Certified Instruments to fly IFR even if our planes are NOT certified? Anybody know?

So, prompted by this question, I searched the web, talked to Garmin, and finally called AOPA. While the answer that I got from AOPA is not canonical (in that it was not provided by the FAA's legal department) here's what they (AOPA) told me:

 

There is NOTHING in the FAR's that speaks to the issue of manufacturing qualifications for IFR equipment in ANY aircraft. However, in order to be able to SELL equipment for aircraft usage, the equipment (at least the navigational equipment) must meet TSO requirements, and for GPS's, it's TSO C-129.

 

So, if BlueMountain Avionics (or Joe Blow's Bargain Basement GPS's) wanted to SELL GPS equipment for use as IFR navigational devices, they'd have to meet the TSO standards (which are self-certified by the manufacturer, but are subject to inspections by the FAA and are more stringent than non-TSO'd equipment).

 

Since you cannot manufacture your own equipment to use in your NON-EXPERIMENTAL certificated aircraft, you are restricted to using equipment from a manufacturer, and since they must meet these TSO standards to claim IFR usage, there's no leeway.

 

Similarly, if I wanted to purchase a navigational device for use in my experimental amateur-built aircraft, it would have to meet the TSO requirements (since the manufacturer must meet these standards in order to sell it).

 

However, if I wanted to put together a navigational device for my own use in my experimental amateur built aircraft out of tablet PC's (or chewing gum and paper clips, if your name is McGyver), I can do so, and use it for whatever purposes I like, including IFR flight. It's not at all clear what the FAA might try to claim if you had an accident with such a system, but they'd be hard pressed to find a regulation that would have prohibited it.

 

This certainly contradicts at least part of my original statement on this matter - in our experimental aircraft, we have a LOT of leeway. The URL provided in the previous posting (from BMA) explains most of this in more (and different) detail - it's good to see that AOPA is pretty much on the ball.

 

Now, the INTELLIGENCE of doing such a thing with a homebrew system that you might be using in hard IFR is questionable at best, but it would be legal.......

[John Slade]

So, if BlueMountain Avionics (or Joe Blow's Bargain Basement GPS's) wanted to SELL GPS equipment for use as IFR navigational devices, they'd have to meet the TSO ...

I think this is the loophole, Marc. BMA and others don't offer IFR equipment. They offer VFR eqipment. Once we have it in our planes we can use it under IFR without breaking any rules.

 

Personally, I LIKE steam gauges. They're relatively inexpensive and they look REALLY complicated to passengers.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by John Slade

I think this is the loophole, Marc. BMA and others don't offer IFR equipment. They offer VFR eqipment. Once we have it in our planes we can use it under IFR without breaking any rules.

In theory that might be the case, but in fact, you will need to get your installation approved by your DAR or FSDO for IFR use - it's part of your operating limitations for ex. am. built and there's no way around it.

 

Basically, if you can convince the FSDO/DAR to give you IFR approval for your installation, be it BMA, Dynon, chewing gum and paper clips, or whatever, then you'll be legal. If you CAN'T convince them, then whatever loopholes you think there might be will get you a cup of coffee, if you happen to also have a couple of bucks.

[dust]

A DAR, well if i can show they meet the specs then it is off to court with the FSDO, i wouldn't do that to a DAR. Might be fun. I hear they don't do very well on the witness stand.

 

I don't plan, hear that one allot don't you, on flying hard IFR, just up and over, you have to be able to do that in michigan, 73 sun days a year. I'm not complaining, i like the weather, it is just hard to fly vfr in it.

[John Slade]

Perhaps I'm missing something here. It's my understanding that the airworthyness certificate you get clears you to fly VFR within 40 mile radius, or whatever it is. When flight testing is complete YOU sign the plane off and away you go. There is no further inspection, even if you make a major modification. You just do 5 hours flight testing and away you go again.

 

Now you're airworthyness cert specifically says "not approved for IFR unless properly equiped or some such wording". Therefore, by default, the airplane IS approved for IFR once it IS properly equiped. Now we come back what is proper equipment and who defines it. I think that comes down to what's "required for ground equipment in use". If you're not using any ground equipment because you have a GPS, then there's no equipment required in the plane to make it IFR ready.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by John Slade

Perhaps I'm missing something here. It's my understanding that the airworthyness certificate you get clears you to fly VFR within 40 mile radius, or whatever it is. When flight testing is complete YOU sign the plane off and away you go.

This is almost correct, and you ARE missing something. When you get your certificate, it says nothing about operations. The thing that does is the "Operating Limitations" document, and it has two parts - one for the 25 or 40 hour restricted period, and one for everything else. There are different operating limitations for both, and the DEFAULT is VFR day only. If you want VFR night or IFR after your restricted period is up, you need to ask for it and have it explicitly called out in the op. limits, which is written BEFORE the inspection.

 

Now you're airworthyness cert specifically says "not approved for IFR unless properly equiped or some such wording". Therefore, by default, the airplane IS approved for IFR once it IS properly equiped.

The airworthiness certificate says nothing on it about equipment or restrictions. The op. limits are written by the FSDO/DAR, and must be approved during the inspection. You can ASK for IFR approval, but they don't have to write it in or give it to you if they don't like the equipment. The DEFAULT is VFR only - everything else is by request and approval. Since you haven't been through this process yet, I'm not sure you should hold yourself out as an expert on what happens or how the process works.

 

I think that comes down to what's "required for ground equipment in use". If you're not using any ground equipment because you have a GPS, then there's no equipment required in the plane to make it IFR ready.

91.205 (d) (2) states "Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used".

 

In theory, you can use your plane for IFR without any radios or nav equipment if you're not going to land at a controlled airport or by using VOR/ILS/DME/etc. equipment. I'd almost guarantee that you'll never get a DAR/FSDO to approve your op. limits for IFR operation without appropriate radios and nav equipment, however. GPS (per the BMA URL listed above) is only approved for IFR navigation as SUPPLEMENTAL equipment, meaning that you've got to have some OTHER form of NAV available to you in order to use the GPS.

 

Given these things, you may be able to convince some DAR/FSDO to give you IFR approval in your op. limits with just a BMA or homegrown system in your plane and nothing else - it is at least in theory not illegal for them to approve it (except for the GPS as "supplemental" part), but personally, I wouldn't spend the time and money on installing those things unless I was SURE I'd get approval, because if you don't, you're just going to have to get the IFR approved equipment anyway. Feel free to be the guinea pig - many will thank you if you get it approved and lead the way.

[John Whalen]

For those considering the solid state AI's using Fibre Optic/MEMS Gyros one thing to keep in mind for IFR operations is that these gyros have high drift rates (10 degrees per hour or higher in some cases) in all axis and require GPS to maintain accuracy. The GPS signals are used to correct the drift of the accelerometers and gyros. I'm not sure if BMA or any of the others face this problem or they have higher quality solid state gyros that have low drift rates.

I have recently completed a study for a portion of a Masters degree that demonstrated that without GPS solid state gyros with the excption of very expensive high quality versions have high drift rates. That is to say if your flying along IFR at night and the GPS goes down you could have a fairly high drift rate creeping in to your attitude and you would have no indication.

My advice would be to ensure at least a backup AI, airspeed, and altimeter along with a VOR/ILS receiver and separate nav display for the VOR/ILS. I have alos followe with considerable interest the developments at BMa and I am seriously considering the system for my plane when I get to that stage if they come up with a method to receive signals from a TSO-129C certified GPS. Moving map combined with the HSI and AI should add greatly to both the pleasure and safety of GA.

 

John

[John Slade]

Since you haven't been through this process yet, I'm not sure you should hold yourself out as an expert on what happens or how the process works.

 

Of course not. I was just being devils advocate looking for the real answer.

 

So, I think I have this down now. I need to specify VFR/IFR ops limits in the initial paperwork before the inspection. To get approved I have to install a giro, transponder w mode c and at least one NAV/COM with a VOR/LOC indicator, or an IFR certified GPS/COM with a VOR/LOC indicator. I'll also need a clock and a magnetic compass. Is this right? Did I miss any items?

 

Feel free to be the guinea pig - many will thank you if you get it approved and lead the way.

 

Not me. I already have the steam gauges installed, and I dont have a spare $12k. I'm looking for the cheapest way to get IFR "ops limits". I think it might be a used IFR approved GPS plus a VOR/LOC head, or a KX155 and a VOR/LOC head. I guess the DAR guy would prefer to see two vor / loc indicators. Maybe I should go down to the FSDO and see if I can meet him - ask him what's acceptible.

[No4]

Some of these moving map GPS systems you guys are building sound very speccy indeed. I'm not so flash with computers, so wouldn't dream of trying it myself. But if someone else cracks it, then I'd really like to know more.

Over here in NZ, legally you can't use GPS approaches without an ADF or a VOR. As for my opinion for what it is worth, I think you would be nuts to go IFR without a VOR, twin ADF, and a DME. The thought of relying on a homebuilt GPS set up for IFR navigation gives me the jitters. Therefore I could use any old GPS and not worry wether it is certified or not.

I plan to have an HSI ( Direction Indicator, VOR, ADF, and ILS in one dial), a twin fixed card ADF, a backup basic VOR, a DME, and then a hand held GPS.

If I get lost with that lot I guess I shouldn't be flying and I'll take up knitting.

Good Luck with your fancy moving maps!

[JakeC]

Looks to me, from what I am hearing, that the homebuilt moving maps would be good if you are looking for a moving map system to use during VFR or as a backup during IFR. Does this about sum things up?

 

How about mounting an infrared camera in the nose of the Cozy and piping it directly into the display? Now that would be very cool .

 

Jake

[marbleturtle]

HeyyyYYYyyyy... Ya know, I bet I could find a wrecked Caddy with the HUD night vision system intact... Hmmmmm

 

I wonder what the range is on those suckers.

[LargePrime]

Use a DAR. A DAR works for you. Ask what the conditions and limits of your approval will be before inspection. If you dont like the answer get another one. If they dont do what they said dont pay and get another one.

 

And NOTHING NOWHERE has to be certificated or approved or anything at all on a home built, Except a transponder, which you dont have to have. Memorize that. ITS AN EXPERIMENTAL... for experimenting, so experiment. JEEZZS!

 

No instrument, no motor, no gear, nothing.

[jwillis]

Hi all,

A homemade moving is strickly for VFR purposes only, just a navigation aid.

I live up in northern Manitoba, Canada, where there are few roads and

lots of lake and rivers, how nice it would be to just look on the map on the panel and say "I over such and such lake", a great tool in crappy weather.

There is some great software out for doing this. It's even better in the USA, you can buy digital maps where as in Canada, I will have to scan mine.

John

[ekisbey]

For those looking at the EFIS/One from BMA, I see on their website that prices are going up again at the end of May, this time to $14,975. On the other hand, the EFIS/Lite now incorporates it's own moving map display, albeit without all the gizmos the /One offers. All the same, things are starting to look mighty pricey compared to the system I first saw last year. I suppose my hopes for a downward trend in prices for this type of equipment, regardless of manufacturer, were rather naive.

[TES111]

It seems to me that it would be easier to simply build a brige connection from a smaller IFR GPS to larger Monitor. Jwillis has the right idea. However, If its not going to cut the mustard with approval why not just build a processor that takes a small screen gps that is certified and magnify that smaller screen on a larger format monitor? All you would need to do is plug it in some how and... urieka! As far as banking my chips on a windows based GPS system... your completely NUTZ! Excuse me Mrs. hard and unforgiving earth I have to re-boot my windows based GPS system. Yea, Right.

[TES111]

I do not mean to sound crude. I just wouldnt rely on windows to guide me anywhere.

[John Slade]

Totally agree. A handhelp GPS built for fishing would be safer.

A Garmin 295 is a fine piece of equipment for $1200 or so, but there are much cheaper mono handhelds that won't give you a message

 

"System failure - ok?"

[LargePrime]

What are you guys talking about?

If your system crashes then just reboot. So you dont know exackly where you are for 30 seconds, who cares!!!!

Shouldnt a pilot be ready for any instrument failure? At any time? A windows based system will do just that. So think of a system crash as a test! Its random skill testing... Ya thats it.

 

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

 

I have been writing windows code to long.

[JakeC]

I wouldn't feel too bad about a windows system in my aircraft. Hopefully I wouldn't be relying on my moving map to the extent that a blue screen would make me buy the farm. Having spent most of my learning curve with 95 and 98, XP seems rock solid. But, then again, I haven’t spent too much time with Linux although I have managed to crash it as well.

 

I think that with a fresh xp install and only a few programs installed, the risk of frequent blue screens would be minimal. I put my home system through 10 times the abuse and I rarely lock anything up. Maybe I could do a dual boot system with identical OS installations. If one goes down I could boot the next drive and keep on going .

 

Ok, I'm ready to dodge the rotten tomatoes!!

 

Jake

[John Slade]

Jake,

If I remember correctly, you haven't done a lot of flying yet.

Imagine a situation where you're flying VFR in class C airspace (like Islip) in 5 miles haze with a class B (New York) only a few minutes flight away. Things can get pretty busy, what with changing air traffic freqencies, trying and failing to make contact with the new ATC guy, flipping back to the previous guy, waiting for a gap in transmissions to explain you're problem, navigating and keeping an eye out for traffic. Meanwhile you need to now where the Class B starts and circle while you wait for clearance. (been there)

 

When you have a GPS it's so good, you come to relay on it a lot. I'd advise NOT using a GPS for the first 50 hours or so. Get the hang of "dead reckoning" and VORs first. Do the other 'IFR' course first (I Follow Roads). This way you have these skills to fall back on.

 

Navigating VFR is always a matter of crosschecking two or more inputs - When one disagrees with another you have to sort out which is right. You need a third input. Loose you're GPS at a busy time and you better be familiar with you're VORs, plus have a good feel for where you are based on speed, wind, flight time, recently spotted ground fixes etc. etc.

 

A "reboot", even for 30 seconds, might just throw you off kilter, get you in trouble and put you in the wrong place at the wrong time. These days that can mean F16s on you're wing tip, or worse....

[JakeC]

If I remember correctly, you haven't done a lot of flying yet.

 

Ouch..that hurts John, that really really hurts . Just because I have no real practical experience and I like to run my mouth should be no reason to bring out the big guns!

 

Seriously though, I see what your saying and I won't really know until I've experienced it for myself. It's easy to say how I will keep a 2nd source or navigation inputs at the ready at all times but it's human nature to begin to rely on the easiest source. Complacency and Murphy have a nasty tendency to get together to bite us on our butts at the most inopportune time.

 

I will still maintain my postion that a Billy G XP system would see me through. Bill wouldn't let me down when I really need him.

 

Hopefully by this time next year I will be a fully qualified pilot just starting the combat skills phase of Army flight school. Then I will really be a know it all with no real practical experience!!!

 

Jake

[John Slade]

>Billy G XP system would see me through.

Yea. Right.

 

>just starting the combat skills phase...

That'll help in a class B, so long as they'll let you put sidewinders on you're Cozy

 

What AC type are you hoping for?