Jump to content

What's the difference?


ekisbey

Recommended Posts

I've noticed there's not a lot of talk (actually, NONE comes to mind) about Continental's 360 sized engines. I've seen references to the similarity of Lycoming and Continental's designs, and I see some for sale on Barnstormer's and such, but I was wondering if there's any flying in a Cozy. If not, is there a specific reason?

Evan Kisbey

Cozy Mk IV plans # 1114

"There may not be any stupid questions, but I've seen LOTS of curious idiots..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by ekisbey

I've noticed there's not a lot of talk (actually, NONE comes to mind) about Continental's 360 sized engines. .... but I was wondering if there's any flying in a Cozy. If not, is there a specific reason?

I have not heard of any COZY's (or V.E. or L.E., for that matter) flying with Continentals. The Continentals 360's are 6 cylinder engines and are a bit longer than the Lycomings, I believe. This would entail a different cowling. Also, the C's mount with a bed mount instead of the dynafocal ring for the L's. This would entail a whole new engine mount design, and mods to the firewall.

 

That's why you don't see any. There's no particular advantage (maybe a bit smoother, I guess) and a lot of extra work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so i know I am looking at ALLOT of extra work, but, what's new, after nearly 5 years of plane building I need an engine and I want it turboed.

SOOOOOOOOOO it looks like a tio360 or is it a tsio?? continental

Found one today for $7500, 2100 TT and 680 SMOH, no prop strike, including fuel injection/starter turbo, prop govenor and all of those things that weigh allot.

 

The people on this forum have made me think about heat from the turbo so while building the turtledeck I am burying an additional naca scoop, just in case extra airflow is needed.

 

so here comes custom motor mount, newhardpoints in firewall, cowling modifications, etc,etc,etc

 

Talked to Nat, he thinks it is foolish and will weigh too much, he is probably right, but, I am bull headed.

 

and ifin it doesn't work out, after eating more crow, I'll sell it and put in a lycoming 360.

 

The lycoming turboed 360's are very rare

maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike,

You say you want a turbo and some extra power, and are prepared to do some extra work to get it.

 

Why not install a 13B rotary? This way you'll also get electronic ignition, fuel injection, a VERY robust engine, much less vibration, MUCH more power than a turbo cont or Lyc, AND minimal maintenance costs. You wont even have to change the mount points.

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So John...

Despite not having started the plane yet, I still find myself oscillating between Lyc, Mazda, and Subaru power plants. If I'm not wrong, you hope to get smooth 300HP with a 10-12 GPH burn rate...is this correct?

I must admit, the ideas of no carb icing, single power lever, and constant HP at any altitude sound absolutely great.

 

But I must say, after looking through Greg Richter's as well as your web page -the task of pulling everything together from spare parts from all over and then observing that there are as many installations as there are people- the idea of a rotary powered COZY seems that much more daunting to me.

It's probably because I know very little about the finer aspects of reciprocating engines (let alone rotarys). I just look at your installation and wonder "where on earth would I begin?".

 

Hey! here's a thought!

If it's not too much trouble, would you mind...eh....just puting together a parts list of everything that went into your power plant installation (and where to get these items as well...of course!) as well as ....uh...a complete and exploded schematic/view of where things go....and...oh yeah....a list and schematics/drawings of fuselage structural mods necessary for new fuel/cooling systems? You'd really be helping us newbies'out! :)

 

I guess I should just suck it up and demonstrate the same courage you, Greg, and Tracy (and numerous others) have shown and just dive into it. I suppose every journey begins with a single AN fitting! :)

 

Rob (Ann Arbor, MI)

Rob Schaum

Avid COZY admirer and eventual builder in MI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rob,

 

>you hope to get smooth 300HP with a 10-12 GPH burn rate

I think that's a bit optimistic. I've done everything short of heavy porting to get the HP up - I have a 3rd gen which gets me a little more. I had it mildly "street ported" to gain some more. It also has the high compression (non-turbo) rotors. Add in the EFI and computer ignition and I should be close to the top you can get without doing anything drastic. All this plus the turbo and I should be a little higher than Richter who reported in the 250 range. I had my prop cut for 280 initially. He can back it down as needed. We shall see. Now -if I can just cool the sucker, I'll be in business. Burn rate - I'm sure it'll burn more than 12 GPH while producing 250HP. Calculations will show that. But, I expect to cruise at much less than full power / full boost. Tracy Crook has shown that comparable fuel burn can be achived, and that the engine can be leaned heavily without damage.

 

>the task of pulling everything together

Yea. I was pretty daunted myself. Tracy Crook gave me the best advice - like any complex problem, do it one step at a time.

 

Step 1. Decide on the engine configuarion you want.

Step 2. Get the engine and accesories from Bruce Turrentine, the mount from Conversion concepts, the redrive and computer from Tracy.

Step 3. Figure out whats missing (Intake & cooling) and accumulate it one piece at a time.

 

>I just look at your installation and wonder "where on earth would I begin?".

I had the same feeling when I looked at it this morning. :D

Remember that I've been accumulating knowledge and parts since I was part way through the fuselage three years ago. I'm now zeroing in on the final wires and pipes to make it go. At the beginning I had as much understanding as you do now - possibly less. The rotary hasnt really cost me anything in "elapsed time". If I'd gone with a LCY I'd probably be at the same stage I'm at now, but cringing at the cost of electronic ignition, etc.

 

>would you mind...eh....just puting together a parts list of ...

I'm trying to put everything relevant in my web site. It may not be that well organized, but most of the information is there. I'll add more to this as I move along.

 

I'd recommend getting on with the fuselage per plans while watching and waiting for at least 6 months. By then I should be flying, and you should be able to see a few more rotaries at fly ins.

 

Like every other complex task we face, putting in a rotary isnt so bad when you break it down into smaller tasks. It sure beats the heck out of doing a lot of work to put in a Continental.

 

I just heard of a new organization, http://www.iteaa.org which seems to be stepping in where the EAA failed (or rather choose not) to tread. ITEAA would be worth joining if you plan to go this route.

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just got done talking to Mike on the phone. He promises to get some hard facts about the weight of this package. Up front it looks like this engine has possibilities. I am still open to anything, including a Mazda rotary like John is putting in his plane. Can't wait to hear what the performance of his plane actually is when he gets it flying!! I am also interested in the actual durability of the Mazda rotary and what the life span of it will be before a teardown/rebuild is needed. I would think it will be high due to having few moving parts.

Dave Clifford

"The Metal Man" Musketeer

Vise grip hands and Micrometer eyes!!

 

Cozy MKIV Plans #656

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As an item for reference, I am also putting a 13B on my canard. I am building a Long Ez so my installation is simplier than John's. My mill is a stock 1988 2nd Generation motor, normally aspirated. It is on a custom welded design motor mount. Conversion concetps does a mount for the Coxy so that removes a big hurdle. My exhaust is a Mazda racing header that will get cut down and a muffler attached. Stock lower Mazda manifold, stock injectors, stock fuel rail, slightly modifed upper manifold, aftermarket auto style throttle body. Tracy Crook's redrive and electric ignition. Tracy's tells me I should be in the neighborhood of 180 HP. While this is more complicated than bolting up a LYC. It is less complicated than writing a $7000-$10000 check for an overhual. You can see photos at http://mevans28.tripod.com

 

Matt Evans

Clearwater, Florida

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a lot of info on a lot of lycoming and continental engines at this website:

 

http://www.factoryengines.com

 

Correction: There's a LOT of engines listed on this site, and the prices this company is quoting, but no specs. Good starting point though.

Evan Kisbey

Cozy Mk IV plans # 1114

"There may not be any stupid questions, but I've seen LOTS of curious idiots..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick answer - no.

Long answer - no, but I'm hoping that it'll come in around the weight of an IO360 Lyc. :P

 

The weights of the various main pieces are recorded on my web site. At this stage I'm adding things like pipes, coils, plug leads and wires, and weight has pretty much been ignored on the basis that I gotta have it anyway - I'll see how it all works out at the end and then eat the appropriate number of Burger King hamburgers to get the CofG in the right range.

 

I'm not sure that Matt's installation in a Long will be that much simpler than mine. No turbo, but making a durable exhaust makes up for that. Reduced cooling problems, perhaps, but much less space to do it all in.

 

As for a LCY overhaul for $7000 - maybe if there's not much wrong. I think they tend to be more in the five figure range typically. You could have a couple of spare 13Bs ready to go for that price. TBO's for a Mazda are looking like they could be 2000 - 3000 hrs, but everyone is still checking much earlier than that for safety. Not much wear is being found. Like you say - there's not much to wear out.

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, if we're going to chat about rotarys we should probably do it over in the rotary section. If anyone has any questions I or other wanklers can help with, please raise them over there.

 

AT least this thread puts SOMETHING in the continental section :D

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John slade wrote

_________________

Mike,

You say you want a turbo and some extra power, and are prepared to do some extra work to get it.

 

Why not install a 13B rotary? This way you'll also get electronic ignition, fuel injection, a VERY robust engine, much less vibration, MUCH more power than a turbo cont or Lyc, AND minimal maintenance costs. You wont even have to change the mount points.

__________________

 

The call of the siren, thats what a car engine in an airplane is to me.

 

If I could get the performance you are hoping for, it would be on order! End of story, done deal, case closed.

 

I just don't believe it will happen, each car engined airplane I have reviewed was heavy and slow. I don't want a heavy/slow airplane.

 

Who is flying a plane with an engine that is doing this and getting this performance?

 

I know with an airplane engine it will perform to specs( well close anyway)

 

The other choices in the modern airplane engines just are not there

 

 

Zoche - vapor engine

 

Deltahawk - will they be around in ten years even if they go into production

 

Continental - the engine is flying great, no decision to go into production has been made, so, an engine is a long way off, if ever

 

Aerospacial - HEAVY - the engine weighs allot and the prop had to be beefed up by 50 pounds because they had an in flight break up problems AND they want $80,000 for it, no thank you france, thats allot of euros

maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information