workshop space and conditions

[dust]

what do you need in a plane building workshop.

 

Well it can be plain for fancy.

 

We are building 2 in a basement and have been doing it for over 4 years, one day a week.

 

The pros are, uniform temperature year round, plenty of room and a workshop that can stay when we are done.

 

The cons, a hole in the family room floor to get the parts out (this is not a walk out) and the need for final assembly and strake building area.

 

Well the hole in the floor is not a big deal, roll back the carpet, cut and frame hole as though you were putting in a stairway, lift parts out, reframe and cover hole up and restretch carpet.

 

I met a guy in scottsdale who is building in his apartment living room, on the second floor, did nice work. When I was there he was through chap 8. His workbench was on his porch outdoors, not a big porch.

 

The parts are not that big, it's a cozy.

 

The Epoxy has no odor(mgs or is it msg)

 

The point is, build.

 

In a basement

In a garage

in a livingroom

In a barn

In a hanger

In a shed

In a bedroom

In an attic

 

In a borrowed any of the above.

In a rented any of the above.

 

My build sit is an hour drive from my house, we take it every week and enjoy the ride and conversation.

 

Build and don't let anything stop you. When the area you are in is too small, you will find a bigger one, just build.

 

We are on chapter 20, twice and have done everything except install the main spar, for that we will wait until outside.

 

The main gear were fully installed and then removed and stored

The canards were installed and then removed and stored

 

Build, Build, Build

 

Mike

[Rui]

Wow, thats amazing. I too, have heard of the extraordinary measures people go to to build their planes. One other reason why I haven't started yet (btw, to others, Mike started this thread as a reponse to a private message of mine where I said that I have been lurking all the builders sites for about 3 years now and that I hadn't started because of my unsuitable location) is that I haven't actually ever seen a Cozy (or a Canard, or any other fiberglass plane for that matter) in the flesh. I am hesitent invest a bunch of money into plans and materials but then find out that there is something that I have missed and it is crucial enough for me to change my mind. At this point this is very unlikely , but I still would like to see one up close.

 

I was hoping to go to Oshkosh this year, but things came up that made that impossible. I think I will be going to Las Vegas sometime in the late Winter early Spring and will have some time to visit Nat (if he will have me ).

 

Anyway, I am in early stages of planning, looking for local suppliers of materials as doing the shipping thing accross the border is a hassle in my past experience (so much for "free trade"). If/when I find suitable foam /glass/epoxy suppliers I may try doing some small fibreglass layups to see what its like.

[ekisbey]

Something I'm looking into are those portable prefab toolsheds (I think one brand name is TuffShed), one of the larger ones. I plan on going out and looking at some at the tractor supply here in town this weekend, I hear they have better ones than home depot had. Being military forces me to consider the long term consequences of the build process, and the availability (or lack) of a garage or basement to work in should I move again. I'm good for a few years having just arrived at my current station (one of the reasons for wanting to build now), but knowing I'll have a place to work if I move is comforting. Since the household six has forbidden an airplane in the livingroom (I really tried), I'll have to go with an exterior workshop of some sort. Since they're relatively portable, good sized prefab shed would be ideal. A cozy workspace for a cozy airplane.

[John Slade]

Talk to Cozy Builder Jerry Schnieder in Tampa. He set himself up in one of those "tent" type things. I hear he's very happy with it.

http://members.aol.com/jerskip/jerskip_001.htm

[Jerry Schneider]

John's right about me being happy with it. Click HERE to see it.

 

The company which makes it is called "Cover-It". It's 20'x22', nearly airtight, and @$1600 delivered. $700 for the wood decking and side/end walls. With A/C, lights, ventilation, vacuum system, and various other minor goodies the total came to @$2,800 + my sweat. Much cheaper than building a "conventional" workshop. The end walls are fastened so I can remove them easily for "roll-outs/flip-overs".

 

The main thing is to make sure your local Codes allow such a thing.

Mine do

 

Jerry

[ekisbey]

Speaking of workshop setups...

 

 

First:

What would the minimum reccommended dimensions of an enclosed workspace be for building a Cozy? 20X20 sounds plenty roomy, but when all's said and done I may not have room for something that size. I'm not likely to have a garage to work in so a shed/shop(tent?) will be a must.

 

Second:

I assume that there's a list of the tools you're likely going to need listed in the plans, but can anyone give me a rundown on the absolute have-to-have's and ought-to-have's? Looking at the boards and websites I've seen assorted handheld cutting tools, sanders, band saws (what size?) and dremel tools mentioned universally so far, and a few table saws.

 

Since I have no tools to speak of, this project also represents an opportunity to aquire a few of those nifty toys I sadly walked past in home depot for all these years (on my way to the gardening department). My current tool box consists of a hammer, assorted screwdrivers, a leatherman multi-tool, a cordless deremel, and a fancy multimeter. I never cease to be surprised how much you can accomplish with those tools and some ingenuity. Anyhow, part of my planning includes budgeting to outfit a shop with all the equipment I'm going to need. Any suggestions on what I need and what to steer clear of?

[Dan Tomlinson]

20x20 is a "good" size, but can get a little cramped if not layed out properly. 24x30 would be perfect, but considerably harder to heat. John is in the lower lattitudes, so A/c is an important item for him - besides, if he can justify AC in the plane, the shop is mandatory! In your climate, your heating will be different than mine (:30 N of Toronto), and needs to be considered.

Calgary needs more heat, Texas needs the heat protection.

 

My shop is also a "tent" - cheap to build & designed as a 3 season shop. Metal stud walls with AirFoil A2V insulation inside and out + 1" Foam covered with a 30x50 Polytarp. Measured at R12, the 2 12,000BTU propane heaters give 24C rise in an hour which here covers all but about 3 weeks of the really cold weather. About 1.5k C$

 

Fuselage on mains, Canard, Spar complete, TB half done, and wings start in a week or 2.

 

It IS doable with temp structures!

 

/dan

[John Slade]

>besides, if he can justify AC in the plane, the shop is mandatory

I presume you're talking about me, Dan. The AC in the plane is for my wife. She spends little time on the patio. My patio and is open to the elements on two sides. Gets fairly uncomfortable in August, but the epoxy sets off nice and quick. This time of year it gets a bit chilly. Must be down to 50F this am. The main problem with working "outside" down here is the humidity and what it does to you're tools and metal parts.

 

The AC is going in the plane as we speak. I found homes for all the AC parts out of a Mazda 323. Currently building mounting, plumbing and ducts. Total weight - 33lbs not including the blower moter.

 

I still have 20 or more lbs weight advantage over "some canard flyers I know." (G'day, Jim)

[Dan Tomlinson]

Sorry John - I meant Jerry's build area on that! Actually I like the idea of A/C in the plane, as although I live for the heat, my other half usually gets sick from it - so I am considering it, even with a weight penalty! Can I just do "her" side? A/C also works beautifully for defrosting in winter as it dries the inside air (in cars at least)!

 

My shop is currently warming from outside temp of -7C to 22C (10F to 74F), while 2 months ago it was 36C (95F) outside. Below 0F to -40F I'll need to stop working for a couple weeks, but that doesn't last very long here.

 

I'm also looking at a Mazda install for several reasons - so any advise or recommendations would be appreciated. I'm expecting late-spring/early-summer to start that at this point. Should I buy a "scrap" engine and rebuild, or look at a proven "aero" rebuilder? (I have a qualified car mechanic next door who is very willing to help :-) )

 

Thanks and Regards,

 

/dan

[John Slade]

Dan,

Since you're interested, I think I'll start an AC thread. I'm making this up as I go along, and could use input from any AC gurus out there.

 

As for the 13B, theres lots of links, discussion, experimentation and pictures on my web site at http://kgarden.com/cozy See Chapter 23 and links section. I'll start a thread on this too with some recommendations and answers to your initial questions.

Regards,

john

[dust]

ok so to start the plane and get to chapter 20 without installing the main spar(that is what we are doing). How little space can it be done in?

 

I would say 12' x 14'

 

what say you

 

Mike

[Dan Tomlinson]

It could be done in 12x14, 12x16 to be able to get around the 4x12 table in there, or 2 smaller areas - I'm in 19x19 shop, with a 3x12 table, and a 4x6 bench, and the fuse on mains, with about a 6x12 open space in the center.

 

IF I lose the bench, I can do everything except install wings, but there is insufficient space to move around without ducking under the canard or spar.

 

Here's a pic before the nose and mains. The 4x6 bench is at the pilot's end of the Canard. The canard wasn't even skinned in that shot!

 

/dan

[dust]

thats why we installed and then unbolted and stored the main gear, canard and are waiting to install the main spar until the end, they just get in the way.

 

The point is, I don't think getting to chap 22 or so in a small space is a bad idea and it gets the plane built without having to wait until everything is perfect.

 

12'x14 is pretty obtainable

[Dan Tomlinson]

It IS doable in that space with good organization, and with regular reorganization. I did a big chunk in an 8x14 basement last winter, and I did get reasonable work done (10 Canard and 1/2 of 14 Spar - my head still hurts from the low ceiling.

 

There are benefits to smaller also, less heating/AC requirements, less places to lose things etc IF you have the vertical flexibility, which I don't in the basement - thus larger.

 

I DON'T have the Canard or Spar installed normally - it was installed for the pic, and for mating for chapter 12, otherwise, both are suspended under my 3x12 workbench wrapped in bubble, padded by styrofoam.

 

When I start the wings (Yes Mike, I'm behind you) in a week or so, the fuse will be standing on it's tail in the corner, to have the flexibility. Here in Canada, I have to make minor modifications to the build schedule. I will do 1 side complete, and the 2nd spar cap on both wings, then book an inspection (precover), then do the other skin on each.

 

Have you seen the John Epplin wing hot-wire templates or did you do your own? I'm trying to get on the list if possible.

 

I have the hotwire and controller lined up, and a couple spare inexperienced bodies to help, so hopefully it won't be too bad! Suggestions and hands are always welcome!

 

/dan

 

#0962

[dust]

you are way ahead of me - we just build 1 day a week for 4 1/2 years now!

Make 12 foot t's so that the wing templete snap together - notch the tee and make the wing jig a little and notch to accept the tee - makes wing positioning way, way easier, see my post on chap 19 wing building forms.

 

Also, since you are more experienced, follow the small templet, it's harder to cut slooooooow than regular, it's easy, like cutting butter with a hot wire(as you know from the canards).

 

Mike

[Paul Kuntz]

I was able to make progress on my Cozy MKIV here in England in a small one-car garage 8 ft by 20 ft, up to Chapter 19 minus Chapter 18 Canopy and Turtleback. At that point, with the fuselage on its side leaning against one wall, the canard, spar and one wing hanging from the ceiling, the other wing occupying the workbench, and the landing gear in our dining room, I was out of room to go further. For power tools, in the garage I had a band saw, drill press and disk sander, each of which I consider essential for this type of construction. Many times I had to open the side door to get room to run something through the band saw. I would describe the size as just barely adequate.

 

Even at that, in order to finish Chapter 12 (canard installation) I had to use the side entrance door, which allowed me to mount the canard by moving the fuselage right up against one wall and poke one end of the canard out the door, with the other canard tip nearly reaching the opposite wall. I also had to fabricate a removable temporary plug for the door that fit around the canard to keep the heat in the garage, and I could only install the canard for the specific steps required, so as to keep it out of the elements. It was also very frustrating to have to rearrange the entire garage and re-level my workbench for every construction step, and to have to climb up onto the workbench to get at portions of the layups. By careful repositioning I was able to get the main gear aligned and installed on the fuselage and mount the axles and wheels, but I couldn't set the fuselage upright on the gear and still leave room to do anything else.

 

So, yes, it's possible to get by for a long time with an 8ft by 20ft space, but I'd say it's just about the minimum. A year ago we moved to a house with a two-car garage, which enabled me to set the fuselage on the gear, complete installation of the pitch controls, build the winglets and install most of the interior pieces (seats and arm rests). There is also room now to build the turtleback, install the canopy, mount the wings on the spar (one at a time), attach the winglets to the wings, mount the spar, build the strakes, install the engine and complete wiring and instruments. I figure a two-car garage (20 by 20) is about the minimum to accomplish all that. For final assembly I'll have to move the project to a larger shop or hangar.

 

And, of course, there's that messy job of filling, sanding, priming and painting the whole thing.

[John Slade]

I can certainly sympathize with Paul's story.

My plane was built on my 35 ft * 20 ft patio. This is just enough room for the entire airframe fully assembled. Even with this much space it's been a squeeze. Mounting the spar and building the strakes must be much easier of you can do it with the whole airplane assembled and level, as I did. Also, having the "airplane" staring at you complete and "ready to fly" rather than as a pile of seperate parts adds a bit of motivation.

 

I'd say 40 * 20 is about ideal workspace.