COSY fun to fly?

[schaumr]

Hi All.

Do all you builders/flyers build this plane with the intention of hauling your friends and family long distances or do some of you build it because it's a fun plane to fly on a clear Sunday morning...just for the hell of it? I know it's FAST, but the higher you go the less you notice the speed. Does this aircraft have a high "fun factor" or is it pretty much a docile 4 place transport vehicle? Just wondering since I've never flown one...but even though Nat specifies "normal" category, it sure looks like it could tear up the sky with one pilot and half tanks!

 

I've asked Marc Zeitlin, who just completed his, and he says it might be tough to fit two 'real' people in the back. Can anyone verify this? How many inches of space are there really between the forward edge of the back seat and the front seat back-support/bulk-head?

Thanks in advance!

 

Rob

[Jack Wilhelmson]

The COSY(correct spelling is COZY) is fun to fly. It is a pilots airplane, a pocket rocket, poor man's fighter plane, and on top of all that is the easyest airplane to fly I have ever flown. The higher speed can be a problem until you get used to it but it is a economical traveling advantage. It has more usable room in it than any other airplane of similar weight and power. Yes you can carry four adults as long as they are not over standard FAA weight. The space is not less than a airline economy fare seat.

 

I have flown many light aircraft and owned several, including a Piper Comanche for 15 years. Compared to a Cozy they all fly like Cleopatra's barge. The Comanche was a good IFR airplane but it was very demanding on landing and would not forgive any variation(+- 5mph)in airspeed on final and touch down. The Cozy will land at any speed above 60 Knots and be completely controllable on the ground as long as you have the runway length to accomadate the speed.

[schaumr]

Once again, my patience has been rewarded with a great response from a Canard Cummunity member. Thank you Jack (I apologize for the mispelling of COZY, by the way!), your experience with other aircraft makes your comments that much more credible. Thanks to your comments (and a few months of research) I'm pretty much hooked on the COZY, now if I can just convince (read "persuade" or "bribe") the wife.......

 

You guys(gals) have a great forum here...your input has been very valuable!

 

Thanks again!

 

Rob

[schaumr]

Once again, my patience has been rewarded with a great response from a Canard Cummunity member. Thank you Jack (I apologize for the mispelling of COZY, by the way!), your experience with other aircraft makes your comments that much more credible. Thanks to your comments (and a few months of research) I'm pretty much hooked on the COZY, now if I can just convince (read "persuade" or "bribe") the wife.......

 

You guys(gals) have a great forum here...your input has been very valuable!

 

Thanks again!

 

Rob

[John Slade]

>now if I can just convince (read "persuade" or "bribe") the wife.......

Ahha! Now we come to the meat of it. Sounds like this is an area you definately need to work hard on. This project is going to take a lot of time and make a lot of mess. Spousal support is essential. I'd venture to suggest that "bribing" and "persuading" aren't good enough. You need to get her on your side, sharing the dream. Try project visits where she is included and gets to meet and talk with the builders / flyer's wife. Take family trips to fly-ins. If you're already a pilot, take her flying to exotic places. Bahamas, Key West, Pittsburg... Let her have the controls. Get her hooked on flying. Set her up on a pinch hitter course and/or aerobatic flight. If you meet resistance to all the above, you may be headed toward the dreaded AIDS (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome).

Try leaving copies of Sport Aviation and the Cozy literature around the house. The best approach I've heard is that the wife / significant other buys the plans for the builder as a birthday / Christmas / Anniversary present. Once you have the plans, encourage her involvement - include her in the decisions on ordering details, airplane type, engine, nose-lift etc. etc. Get her to read Chapter 3 (at least) and understand the safety / strength issues, then have her inspect your work. Discuss what you're going to do and where you're going to go together when the plane is finished.

Good luck.

John Slade

[Frank]

And there lies the biggest problem to (male)home builders (gotta be a lil' pc)...... WIVES. They are the curse of the cozy, and to prove that they are, read on.

 

 

First we state that wives require time and money,

 

Therefor:

 

Wife = Time X Money

 

We all know that time is money (Time = Money)

 

Therefor:

 

Wife = Money x Money = (Money)2

 

and because money is the root of all evil (Money = root[evil])

 

Therefor: (and this is where it gets complicated)

 

Wife = (root[evil])2 and we are forced to conclude:

 

Wife = Evil

 

Just a lil' banter no offence ment really (just incase the wife sees this post)

[schaumr]

Perhaps significant others..(including children) are there to prevent a hobby from turning into an obsession! Besides...aren't they the reason for building a COZY instead of a Long EZ?

[ekisbey]

Originally posted by John Slade

>now if I can just convince (read "persuade" or "bribe") the wife.......

Ahha! Now we come to the meat of it. Sounds like this is an area you definately need to work hard on. This project is going to take a lot of time and make a lot of mess. Spousal support is essential. I'd venture to suggest that "bribing" and "persuading" aren't good enough. You need to get her on your side, sharing the dream.

Greetings, all.

This being my first post on this forum, I didn't want to jump out with a brand new thread, and this one seems to fit the general subject anyhow.

 

First off, I am not a pilot. Yet. I've been an aviation nut as long as I can remember, but until now I've never had the means to make that dream a reality. My dad bought me a red-white-and-blue plastic space shuttle when I was three years old and I've been hooked ever since. I built and flew my first radio controlled plane when I was twelve, from a kit, and then built another like it using only plans a month later (you can guess why).

 

I've talked about building a kit plane for years, though not a plans built. A few months ago my wife finally told me to either shut up and build one, or just shut up about it, but shut up either way. I took this as an oblique way of giving me permission, and after prodding her and bugging her over the last several months while I investigated getting my license and a type of plane to settle on, I realized she's becoming quite excited about it.

 

I landed on the Cozy when I first started looking, but rejected it because it was plans built. However, it seemed like I just kept coming back to it. The more I read about it (especially after Mr. Slade's website-- I actually enjoyed that better than some novels I've read lately!), the more I came to believe it's do-able. In fact, after reading some of the progress pages written by some builders, I realized I'd found my plane. I'm starting to think of this as a scaled up (very scaled up) version of what I've been doing since I was a kid, from an engineering perspective.

 

I have a dilemma though. I can't decide how to go about doing this. Obviously, buy the plans. That'll come next month, most likely. More importantly, however, other than the plain ol' fun factor of building it, there's no point in having an airplane I can't fly.

 

I've given this a lot of thought. I can get my license first, then spend a few years spending my money renting a plane and getting some hours, then building a plane for a few years and losing my certification (face it... we'd all rather spend our cash on building our own planes than spend it on renting someone else's aircraft.), or at the very least get rusty. Or, I can build the plane first and get my license after building it and have it sitting there pouting at me while I'm flying someone else's airplane.

 

License first, build later, or build first, license after. Which is the best way to go? It's not as though I'm totally unfamilliar with aerodynamics and flight, though I'll be the first to admit I'm left feeling a little lost when it comes to FAA regulations and rules. Building from a pilot's perspective will certainly give me some advatages in building some components, but as for crafting a safe and well made flying machine, I have full confidence in my abiblities. I'm finding about an equal number of pros and cons to going either way.

 

I'd appreciate any input on this. Thanks.

[Jerry Schneider]

IMHO, get your ticket first. Flying as PIC is a big responsibility, and it can be a lot more intense than you'd expect. You'd be doing you and your family a great service by experiencing it first-hand, just to make sure you're not making a mistake by spending 3-10 years building a plane which you find out you're not really happy flying/maintaining.

 

Personally, I enjoy building as much as flying.. so, if I lose my Medical, I've still had fun building it. And fun is what it's all about.

 

My 2c,

 

Jerry

[rmaddy]

I made the decision to build a Cozy just days after I got my Private Pilots license. I flew some here and there at first. I even worked on my Instrument rating. After a while I started to get annoyed with spending $75 an hour for a C-172 knowing that in a few years I could fly my own plane for "free". I haven't flown in over a year now and it got me worried a bit. I let my medical lapse too.

 

After some hard thought I've basically decided at this point that there is no point in flying just once in a while, the expense is worth it. I've decided to build full time (full spare time, that is), and when I'm about done I will spend some money to rent, get current, then seek out a willing Cozy pilot to check me out for a few hours, then fly my plane and no more renting.

 

I'm glad I had my license first though. I'm very glad I did some Instrument training too. Both will give me better appreciation of what needs to be done, mostly with respect to the cockpit.

 

If I was still single and not a new Dad, and had more money, I would certainly keep flying while building. But with my time and money, I can only do one - so building it is. I figure the longer it takes to build, the greater the chance it won't get finished.

 

Good luck in your decision and building.

[ekisbey]

One thing that I failed to mention, was that I have flown before, with a licensed and experienced pilot at my side, who was unfortunately not a licensed instructor. In fact, at the time, instruction never even came up. We never did anything really hairy, but I saw enough to prove to myself I wanted more.

 

I am planning on getting some real instruction right away. I totally agree that there's a chance I could encounter something that could turn me away from piloting. I suspect that chance approaches zero, but there's a chance. That's sound advice.

 

Start to finish, though, getting licensed is looking pretty darn expensive. I see it as one of the more expensive parts of the aircraft. I've never paid for a lesson, and hoping to find freebie lessons might work for college students and kids at the cropduster strip, but I tend to be a bit more realistic.

 

I can't help but cringe when I realize what I'll end up paying for instruction will equal nearly a third of the airframe cost when all's said and done, plus whatever I pay to stay current while building...

 

And since I fall into Mr. Maddy's category, a new dad on a budget, doing both isn't feasible. I do have an advantage in the medical department-- I'm military and medical's free, as long as you can come up with an excuse. I passed a Class 1a physical earlier this year and it didn't cost me a dime.

 

I know I SHOULD get my license first... but I enjoy building things so much, and this is shaping up to be the most challenging project I've ever attempted...

[John Slade]

My first recommendation would be to get you're ticket first, but perhaps a compromise is possible. The plane is going to take you a few years. Given that you're convinced that piloting is for you, I'd dive in and start building on the understanding that you'll get you're ticket along the way, as finances improve. Quite a few builders do this and it seems to work out fine.

 

Worst case you'll end up with a plane you don't know how to fly (yet). You could get a test pilot to do the first flight. Maybe you could find a buddy to fly off the hours and do the inititial testing, then you could get a CFI checked out in your plane and have them teach you in it. My local CFII has already agreed to help me finish off my IFR in my plane. Doing a private license in a Cozy wouldn't be ideal, and I dont think its been done, but I'm sure its doable if you just keep the throttle back and stick to spam can speeds.

 

Chances are you'll divert and get some flying in towards the end of the building process. Once you have a license it doesnt take much to stay current (legally) but it takes a lot more to stay really current. This is even more true if you only have the bare hours it takes to get the license in the first place, so I'd recommend learning very close to the end - right about the time you have to buy an engine

 

>Start to finish, though, getting licensed is looking pretty darn expensive. I see it as one of the more expensive parts of the aircraft.

Don't you believe it. Wait till you start looking at the avionics catalogs The beauty of building a Cozy from plans is that you can spread the cost over whatever time it takes. Unfortunately that's not true of learning to fly. Ideally you need to do it all in one shot - i.e. do the American Flyers weekend ground school, then do the flying in one intense session at a good school. This, of course, doesnt prepare you for a round the world trip, but it'll get you to the point where you have a license to learn. If you spread the pilot course over three years it will probably cost you three times as much.

 

Bottom line, I'd suggest that you build now, learn to fly towards the end of the building process, have a test pilot fly the first flight and work with an instructor in the transition. Meanwhile, get to know some pilots in the local EAA squadron. Maybe you'll be able to beg a ride on occasion.

 

Step 1 - get the plans and read, read, read

Step 2 - visit some local Cozy projects

Step 3 - build yurself a full size airplane

Step 4 - worry about step four later...

 

Regards,

John Slade

 

PS - Glad you enjoyed the web site.

[Paul Kuntz]

Much like you, I've been an airplane nut since I was a kid, and built a bunch of model airplanes before I got my private license while I was in college. I joined EAA and started thinking about building my own airplane during the time I was taking flying lessons, but didn't actually start building one in earnest until many years later.

 

I wish I had started the building process sooner, and recommend that you get underway. As John Slade says, with a plans-built design like the Cozy you can move along at the rate your finances permit, and can keep reasonably busy with a few hundred dollars of initial investment, nourished after that with a hundred dollars at a time if that's your limit. Note that you're doing this on a cash basis -- that is, you don't have to take out a loan for a kit, so you're avoiding interest charges that add a lot to the real cost of the kit projects.

 

I also recommend that you start working toward your private license in parallel, starting with ground school. I think you'll find, as I did, that the general familiarity with the concepts of flight that you've absorbed from flying models will help a lot with piloting. It's certainly different, but the key factor is whether or not you are really interested. The basic skills are just not that difficult. Being in the military, look into the military flying clubs. Most bases have them, and perhaps there's one at your base or at another base in your area. Their costs are always well below the commercial operators, though the availability, quality and consistency of instruction can be spotty. Stretching your finances between a building project and flying lessons will stretch both out, but the one will reinforce the other, and it's all adding up to progress toward the end goal.

 

One other item to consider seriously, being in the military, is having to move the project around when you are inevitably transferred. I've had to relocate my own Cozy project from Seattle to England, and will have to move it back before it's done. You can crate it up in reasonable-sized pieces until you get to the point where you have to install the spar in the fuselage and build the strakes. At that point, in my opinion, it's just too unwieldy to move long distances without real risk of damage. I know others have done it, but it's not easy. In my case, I'm going to leave the spar installation and strake construction until after I move back home again. At that point I'll still have another two or three years of work until I'm flying.

 

Regarding building skills, you'll find that the general workshop techniques you have acquired building RC models are 90 percent of what you need to build a Cozy. The rest you'll acquire as you go. Many have built completely airworthy airplanes starting with less knowledge that you have right now. The key is perseverence over the several years that it's going to take.

[niceez]

I have to agree about fly first and build later.

 

Here is some thoughts to share.....

 

Not all people are pilot material.... They're much fewer "pilots" with pilot licenses then they're "people" with pilot licenses. You need to evaluate your abilities and then decide.

 

One thing you can do to assist in saving money buying your materials is to buy an airplane that has the engine you want amoung all the other things aiplanes need. It will also teach what tpo expect from the engine when you are flying. You also now have something to fly while your building and continue to learn about the maintenance that is required and the "how-to" of maintenance. By now you'll also know if you have what it takes to build an airplane. After all if your wife won't support you in buying one there's a slim chance she will support you in building you.

 

The plane to get your flight instruction in further saving money on rental fees. And if worse comes to worse it can be sold.

 

I have seen many divorce's due to building airplanes and can tell you that if I would not have been single when I built mine it would have taken 8 to 10 years to complete it with all the "daddy duties that go along with raising children. With children now, even time for flying it is tough, (well, that is if you are spending enough time with your kids and I suppose it depends on how many you have too).

 

Not trying to scare you off -- Just want you to know thee is a price and the other contributors have given you GREAT advise as I see it.

 

-Dale

[Frank]

Dale..... What a great idea! Cheers m8.

 

You may have just solved one of my biggest problems. There are planes for sale here (UK) that range from £3,000 - £50,000. If by luck and the help of a few other builder I can find a suitable engine for a cozy then it would definately be worth looking into, if only for the bonus of getting a complete set of instruments and the use of the electrics aswell.

 

The flying of the plane at the start of the building process would also give valuable experience as it would probobly take about 2-3 years before i would need to take any parts.

 

Frank.

[John Slade]

Frank,

Purchasing a plane sounds like an interesting approach, but before you dive off and make the commitment, let me offer some negatives...

 

1. Avionics has progressed a great deal, and will do so more while you build. The average "spam can" (especially the affordable ones) has big, old, heavy "steam powered" instruments which you might not want to put in your Cozy when it's done. Today an EFIS/One will replace all this and much more for $10k. Tomorrow, who knows? You will probably want to wire you're Cozy a la "Aeroelectric Connection" with techniques and equipment much improved over what the certified ships use. In general terms the experimental world allows you improvement and cost alternatives that would be restricted by using parts from a cessna or piper.

 

2. Looking for an engine suitable for a Cozy will limit you're choices. Once you have the plane, you're alternative will be limited even more. Certified engines are also evolving, albeit slowly, and there might be a nice diesel alternative by the time you're ready. You might wish to consider an automotive option such as the subaru or rotary (both now flying in Cozys). The Mazda is approaching a firewall backward package and should be well proven by the time you're ready for an engine. I'm not sure if the CAA will certify automotive conversions, but if they do this might be an option.

 

3. Airplanes are expensive in UK. (I'm from Lancashire originally). Taking a flying airplane out of service by removing the engine and instruments will be expensive in terms of value reduction. Perhaps more than the value of the old, used items you remove.

 

4. Once you have an airplane you'll be tempted to fly rather than build. Your project may be starved of both time and funds.

 

My impression is that you're looking forward to the building for the sake of the building. Building is cheap, at least initially. Buying, owning, storing and maintaining an airplane will divert you from this. This is especially true in UK where the weather often gets in the way of actually flying. With limited funds you could end up in a situation where the spouse is exposed to the costs of certified flying and you're building dream gets shot for good.

 

I agree that you should get some hours and at least get to the point of going solo - then perhaps its decision time - build or fly???

 

Just another perspective.

Regards,

John Slade