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Cozy IV - project - Transportation help

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Hello Folks,

 

new to this community and am very excited to take on a Cozy IV project. The project has a complete airframe, engine installed, missing electrical and avionics and all the cosmetics. The project is located in Detroit and I am in Kansas. ANY IDEAS on how to move it? with the wings removed, I believe the width sits around 12 feet with the strakes tip to tip. 

 

Also, any estimates on a performance with an O-320? this is what the project currently has installed, might consider switching to an O-360. 

 

Any and all help is truly appreciated :)

 

Regards

Manju 

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Get measurements.  

I've seen the Cozy Mk IV hauled on a low deck flat bed on an angle.

You will need a very low deck trailer. Know your Height when loaded.

Check every overpass and the one you fail to read may make you CRY.

 

This to allow it to fit with in width and height limits on the road ways.

 

My dad used foam and straps to secure the Aircraft He hauled.

Twist the straps over so they are not flat and allow them to vibrate.

When you go down the road and hear them you'll figure this out.

Most Flat bed Drivers twist there straps and the Rookies can be spotted 

when they fail to twist them.  You load will be in the wind so you

need to think how this will effect your new AC. Nothing can rub

and wear so you need to recheck your load 10 miles after you get going

then 50 miles and every time you stop get out and check every thing.

Invest in good straps. I mean ratchet straps. Ropes are ok if you haul

stuff every day and can use a good slip knot. Support every edge with 

piece of carpet, rag or something to help. I've wrapped tape on the

rope to prevent damage. Use good but useful carpet end cuts and

these can be screwed to the deck and used to brace when applied right. 

 

You might be able to use an old mattress to protect your wing. 

Look around and call Mattress Stores if you can barrow there used junk.

.

You may need to build a brace to keep wind damage from attacking the

rudders.  So take your Black N Decker tools and supplies to make it work.

Bring tape. light bubs and hand tools 2x4's at the local hardware store too.

Wire connection to the trailer always fail with the ground. A wire brush and

a 177-22 caliber bore brush helps to keep the fuzz happy.

 

Avoid Rest Stops. Too many bad stories.

 

How to load the Fuselage and hold it at an angle... I have yet had to do this to a Canard.

The other AC were salvage and we did it by shear Man power and Come a Longs..

 

Check a few Builders logs and check with them on there trip from Garage to Hanger.

Don't go alone and Never Ever do Business with Cash. EVER. Not past a few hundred,

Trust what you can verify. Hope you know what your buying. Buyer Beware.

Edited by Cozy846

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TheRethink.


 


Get measurements.  


I've seen the Cozy Mk IV hauled on a low deck flat bed on an angle.


You will need a very low deck trailer. Know your Height when loaded.


Check every overpass and the one you fail to read may make you CRY.


 


This to allow it to fit with in width and height limits on the road ways.


 


My dad used foam and straps to secure the Aircraft He hauled.


Twist the straps over so they are not flat and allow them to vibrate.


When you go down the road and hear them you'll figure this out.


Most Flat bed Drivers twist there straps and the Rookies can be spotted 


when they fail to twist them. Your load will be in the wind so you


need to think how this will effect your new AC. Nothing can rub


and wear so you need to recheck your load 10 miles after you get going


then 50 miles and every time you stop get out and check every thing.


Invest in good straps. I mean ratchet straps. Ropes are ok if you haul


stuff every day and can use a good slip knot. Support every edge with 


piece of carpet, rag or something to help. I've wrapped tape on the


rope to prevent damage. Use good but useful carpet end cuts and


these can be screwed to the deck and used to brace when applied right. 


 


You might be able to use an old mattress to protect your wing. 


Look around and call Mattress Stores if you can barrow there used junk.


.


You may need to build a brace to keep wind damage from attacking the


rudders.  So take your Black N Decker tools and supplies to make it work.


Bring tape. light bubs and hand tools 2x4's at the local hardware store too.


Wire connection to the trailer always fail with the ground. A wire brush and


a 177-22 caliber bore brush helps to keep the fuzz happy.


 


Avoid Rest Stops. Too many bad stories.


 


How to load the Fuselage and hold it at an angle... I have yet had to do this to a Canard.


The other AC were salvage and we did it by shear Man power and Come a Longs..


 


Check a few Builders logs and check with them on there trip from Garage to Hanger.


Don't go alone and Never Ever do Business with Cash. EVER. Not past a few hundred,


Trust what you can verify. Hope you know what your buying. Buyer Beware.


 


On the O-320,,,,,, I would look at the IO-360 series Lycoming's if I was going to use this type Engine,


 


Also  I've read about the heat and cooling issues builders fight with these Air cooled engines. Some one has to have perfected this by now. Down draft / Up draft / Split draft mix who knows. Air cooled is not my option so your on your own. Research this so you might get it right for your AC. 


 


I'd rethink the baffling design. Every one starts with the Tractor design from the Conventional use of these power plants..... Maybe the baffling needs to be rethought because the Air flow is not flowing into the nose but exiting there...... Directional baffling to individualize the cooling to each Jug?  Thus one could install butterfly valves to limit or open cooling air flow?  Jug jackets and Air flow Manifold?.  Don't attack this. It was a 2 minute thought. So the punch line wasn't written.  Good Luck.

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\ANY IDEAS on how to move it? with the wings removed, I believe the width sits around 12 feet with the strakes tip to tip. 

\

Here is a photo of Zubair moving his Cozy project across the USA...

 

http://forum.canardaviation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6310&d=1330640503

 

Note that he used a very heavy duty trailer (Not a harbor freight trailer).

He also used a moving van for the wings, canard.... all the extras.  

 

There are many online stories of moving a Cozy... its all been done, just do some searching and you can find it.  

Edited by Andrew Anunson

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On the O-320,,,,,, I would look at the IO-360 series Lycoming's if I was going to use this type Engine,

 

Also  I've read about the heat and cooling issues builders fight with these Air cooled engines...

 

I'd rethink the baffling design...

Congratulations on your purchase!!!  Can you share a bunch of photos with us?

 

The O-320 (150HP or 160 HP) seems to be a little small for for the MKIV.  It can work, but most highly recommend the 360  (180HP).

 

The Cozy MKIV plans have us install the O-360... the IO-360 will give you an additional 20HP over the O-360 (very nice) but it is quite a bit heavier and some plans parts (engine cowls and baffles) won't fit.  I would go with the plans O-360 and do the very simple upgrade to FI if you want.

 

When builders follow the plans, they typically have good cooling.  I am currently building the plans engine baffling for the O-360 with FI, and these baffles are easy to build and almost all the MKIV's that fly a lot use the plans cooling.  Its a good system.

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Hello all, 

 

Thanks for all your inputs. Been talking to a few folks and been looking up the "oversized" load regulations. looks like I should be able to haul it on a flat bed as long as it under 12 feet tip to tip without too much paper work or without pilot vehicles. Will make sure that the strakes are at over 6 ft ground up for safety purposes. Will be passing thru Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, MO and KS. 

 

As for the engine, very inclined to swap it to an O-360. 

 

Is there a cozy builders/owners list? I am looking for somebody in the detroit area who could potentially assist with a pre-buy inspection. will put up a link with the pics soon...!!

 

Appreciate all the input folks. 

 

Thanks

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"The Cozy MKIV plans have us install the O-360... the IO-360 will give you an additional 20HP over the O-360 (very nice) but it is quite a bit heavier and some plans parts (engine cowls and baffles) won't fit.  I would go with the plans O-360 and do the very simple upgrade to FI if you want."

 

According to Lycoming 

O-360 C4P weight is 275 to the heavier O-360 G1A6 weight at 303 pounds. For 180 hp depends on your power plant you choose.

IO-360 L2A weight is 278 to the heavier IO-360 J1AD weight at 323 pounds Dry

So for the weight I trade up. And we form our cowling around the power plant.

As far as the Heat issues I have read where some have had hot cylinder issues. That could be from 

a number of issues. One is dealing with very old tech here and no one will stick there neck out very far with the punitive legal fees Aviation companies face with product liability insurance. Pay 10 times what it is worth for 1/2 the life span. 

 

But not my problem I quit working on these Jurassic era designs well over  20 years ago.

 

 

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/O-HO-IO-HIO-AIO%20%26%20TIO-360%20Oper%20Manual%2060297-12.pdf

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According to Lycoming 

O-360 C4P weight is 275 to the heavier O-360 G1A6 weight at 303 pounds. For 180 hp depends on your power plant you choose.

IO-360 L2A weight is 278 to the heavier IO-360 J1AD weight at 323 pounds Dry

So for the weight I trade up. And we form our cowling around the power plant.

As far as the Heat issues I have read where some have had hot cylinder issues. That could be from 

a number of issues. One is dealing with very old tech here and no one will stick there neck out very far with the punitive legal fees Aviation companies face with product liability insurance. Pay 10 times what it is worth for 1/2 the life span. 

 

But not my problem I quit working on these Jurassic era designs well over  20 years ago.

 

 

 

 

Ok... we are sorry for the thread drift here... :)  

 

We should be using the terms "parallel valve"  (lightweight 360, typically 180hp)  and "angle valve" (heavyweight 360, typically 200 hp).

 

The lightweight IO-360 you listed (the L2A) is rated at only 160HP.  The lightweight IO-360's are typically parallel valve engines and they are typically rated at 180 hp.

If you want the additional 20HP, you need to look at the heavier (20 to 40 lbs) angle valve engines.

 

Most builders do not build their own engine cowlings... its cheaper and much easier to buy one from Featherlite.

 

Most EZ's and Cozy's that actually go places and fly a lot have airplane engines.

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Is there a cozy builders/owners list? I am looking for somebody in the detroit area who could potentially assist with a pre-buy inspection. will put up a link with the pics soon...!!

 

 

Yes... you should join the Cozy builders email list (its a Google Group ----  search for Cozy Builders on google groups).  Builders and fliers monitor that list.  If you join the list, you can have access to a map showing all the builders in the US.

There are builders in the Detroit area that can most likely look at the project for you... 

 

Right now there are 4 places to go for Cozy information....

This Forum

The Other Forum

The Cozy Builders Email List (Google Group)

The Canard-Aviators Email List (Yahoo Group)

 

It may seem silly  to have to check 4 places for information... but it is what it is.

 

If you post the request to the two email lists you should get some good responses.

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Ok... we are sorry for the thread drift here... :)  

 

We should be using the terms "parallel valve"  (lightweight 360, typically 180hp)  and "angle valve" (heavyweight 360, typically 200 hp).

 

The lightweight IO-360 you listed (the L2A) is rated at only 160HP.  The lightweight IO-360's are typically parallel valve engines and they are typically rated at 180 hp.

If you want the additional 20HP, you need to look at the heavier (20 to 40 lbs) angle valve engines.

 

Most builders do not build their own engine cowlings... its cheaper and much easier to buy one from Featherlite.

 

Most EZ's and Cozy's that actually go places and fly a lot have airplane engines.

The project I am looking at has an O320 E2D "wide deck" with an "A" in the serial number. I have seen posts where you could upgrade to 160 hp using high compression pistons. I am assuming there is no way to get that to 180 HP. has anybody got such  a conversion? is it worth it at all? or instead just swap the engine out to an O 360?

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There is an engine by Titan that they call the stroker 340... I dont know much about it, but they advertise it as a 320 thats been increased to 340 ci and its rated at 180hp. Possible, yes. Your best option? That depends on a lot of things including money.

 

If your 320 engine has been sitting for a year or more it may have enough rust inside to warrant a rebuild. Go ahead and convert it to a 340... you'd have a lightweight 180 hp option.

 

The options are almost limitless...

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What is the time and history on your O-320?  A  low time engine with a documented professional overhaul would sell rather easily, I'm guessing.  If it's over 1000 hours then it's probably not worth the time and money trying to increase the HP but someone would buy it for the time remaining.  Then take that money and buy an overhauled O-360 or watch the salvage yards and ads for a good deal on an O-360.  There is a lot to know about using and buying engines.  Google John Deakin, Mike Busch Avweb, and "Sky Ranch Engine Manual".  They have written a lot about them over the years.  Good stuff.

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What is the time and history on your O-320?  A  low time engine with a documented professional overhaul would sell rather easily, I'm guessing.  If it's over 1000 hours then it's probably not worth the time and money trying to increase the HP but someone would buy it for the time remaining.  Then take that money and buy an overhauled O-360 or watch the salvage yards and ads for a good deal on an O-360.  There is a lot to know about using and buying engines.  Google John Deakin, Mike Busch Avweb, and "Sky Ranch Engine Manual".  They have written a lot about them over the years.  Good stuff.

Kent, it has 1500 hours, pickled for the last 8 years or so. as of now, most likely it has no logs. seller isint sure if its there or not at this time. 

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Kent, it has 1500 hours, pickled for the last 8 years or so. as of now, most likely it has no logs. seller isint sure if its there or not at this time.

 

I think most engine buyers would say that with no history, no logs and that much time it is pretty much a “core” engine. IMO, It’d be foolish to spend a lot of time and money on it, since it isn’t the best engine for the project. You might trade it to a reputable engine shop for credit towards what you need, or if you find the logs, sell it for a bit more.

 

Even if you find the logbooks, you could spend a lot of hours trying to use it as is and find that in a few hours it is using oil or making metal. Now you really have a “core” engine that you wasted a lot of time on.

Edited by Kent Ashton

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Just thinking . . . Nothing says you have to buy this project with a mystery-engine. Make a fair offer for the rest of the project and let the seller deal with it.

 

People are always looking to unload their problems. You’re buying his problem

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Thats a good idea Kent... its not the correct engine for the MKIV, history unknown. What would that 320 be worth? $2000? $2500?

 

Also... do get your pre-buy. We've all seen some really poor workmanship here and there (not that its normal)... you want to start with one of the best projects, not one of the worst.

 

Do you have pictures you can share here? Price?

 

Are you getting signed up for the email list yet?

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Thats a good idea Kent... its not the correct engine for the MKIV, history unknown. What would that 320 be worth? $2000? $2500?

 

I see that there are no O-320s listed on Trade-a-plane and Wentworth has none for sale at the moment so maybe it's not so easy to find a rebuildable core.  Here is one on ebay with logs for $7K.  I would guess a core is worth at least $4K, even if runout and no logs. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lycoming-Runout-O320E2D-with-good-Logs/263404592070?hash=item3d54231bc6:g:8VYAAOSw4PxaGaxn&vxp=mtr

 

If you go into the "advanced search" feature on ebay, you can see what engines sold, or did not sell for.  The pawn shops camp on that page.  That's how they know how much to loan on what you pawn.  :-)

 

Here are some pics Manju sent me.  I don't think he'll mind if I link to them.  Let's do a pre-buy right here!

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMqny0nddKT4dlaACzPaPihr7_o_olipEiXIw8E6-YaXlwngjX0Is1ZDa4KKyQMtw?key=NS1hd1B5OTZXTkhwVkZvQlpsMF8xT2hfMi1oVmZn

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Thats a good idea Kent... its not the correct engine for the MKIV, history unknown. What would that 320 be worth? $2000? $2500?

 

Also... do get your pre-buy. We've all seen some really poor workmanship here and there (not that its normal)... you want to start with one of the best projects, not one of the worst.

 

Do you have pictures you can share here? Price?

 

Are you getting signed up for the email list yet?

Detroit EAA chapter is assisting with the pre-buy. in touch with some real nice folks out there. Should be back up there mid Jan. 

Put in a request with Marc to get me added to the mailing list.. should be on there soon

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I see that there are no O-320s listed on Trade-a-plane and Wentworth has none for sale at the moment so maybe it's not so easy to find a rebuildable core.  Here is one on ebay with logs for $7K.  I would guess a core is worth at least $4K, even if runout and no logs. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lycoming-Runout-O320E2D-with-good-Logs/263404592070?hash=item3d54231bc6:g:8VYAAOSw4PxaGaxn&vxp=mtr

 

If you go into the "advanced search" feature on ebay, you can see what engines sold, or did not sell for.  The pawn shops camp on that page.  That's how they know how much to loan on what you pawn.  :-)

 

Here are some pics Manju sent me.  I don't think he'll mind if I link to them.  Let's do a pre-buy right here!

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMqny0nddKT4dlaACzPaPihr7_o_olipEiXIw8E6-YaXlwngjX0Is1ZDa4KKyQMtw?key=NS1hd1B5OTZXTkhwVkZvQlpsMF8xT2hfMi1oVmZn

Kent, your estimates I think are pretty accurate. I dont see too many E2Ds for sale, but generally in reading other groups and forums, I believe the E2Ds are one of those "bullet proof" engines :) Seen that term used a lot. 

Havent really decided yet...  maybe an AnP inspection on the engine, and if its good as is, I might just try to get the Cozy flying with this, use up the remaining 400-500 hours (which should be a good few years), and then invest in an IO-360 :)]

I just grin every time I think of the project and I wonder if I am getting ahead of myself...  :rolleyes:

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maybe an AnP inspection on the engine, and if its good as is, I might just try to get the Cozy flying with this, use up the remaining 400-500 hours (which should be a good few years), and then invest in an IO-360 :)]

I just grin every time I think of the project and I wonder if I am getting ahead of myself...  :rolleyes:

 

Yep, you could certainly go that direction but A&Ps don't work for free and if you find rust or valve problems, you're back to putting a lot of time and money into a less-than-ideal engine and a prop for it.  If you had a logbook, you'd know a lot more.  For example, a flight-school motor that flew every day for 1500 hours is a much better candidate than the engine off an airplane that flew 50 hours a year for 30 years.

 

If you determine you want to use it, there are cheap ways to inspect it yourself.   Rust, cylinder wall condition, valve wobble, and spalled cams are things to look at.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134875&highlight=vividia+valves

http://forum.canardaviation.com/showpost.php?p=69231&postcount=40

http://forum.canardaviation.com/showpost.php?p=69232&postcount=41

If those are OK, just bolt it up and use it.

 

OTOH, you don't need to get married to this engine just because it came with the project.  Even with no engine logs, if you can reasonably assure a buyer you've inspected for those things, this engine would sell pretty easily, I would guess, then you can get the bigger engine.

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Andrew & Kent


 


Thanks Guys, all this information has explained a great deal. I wasn't working in an Engine shop and we worked with what we had. 


I am sure there are certain engine types that are the best selections in these class of engines. Maybe a thread else where. 


 


Best regards.

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All,

 

wanted to provide an update on this, I was able to move the COZY from DEtroit to Kansas over the last weekend. Used a 20 ft trailer, 82 inches wide. got wide load permits for all states, well, cops never stopped me anyplace, the drive was ok, wansnt too bad, a few construction zones were a little tricky. reached Kansas last night, no issues with the move, no damages.... Had wrapped the plane in moving blanket and shrink wrapped it... the shrink wrap was maybe not rqequired, but was hard to keep the moving blankets on.. had to use a LOT of duct tape (no taping anywhere on the surface of the cozy), and a lot of shrink wrap (but took about 30 minutes to unpack). 

Wanted to share this for those who might want to move a cozy again. below are the pictures and some details of what I did,

- COZY loaded with the nose in the front

main gear legs on the trailer axle (the bulk of the weight is still in the front of the trailer axle)

wiings laid next to each other with minor overlap of the trailing edhes (moving blanket and foam in between to prevent damage)

wooden studs screwed to the trailer floor and padded to stop the wings or other parts from moving

three 2 inch wooden blocks screwed one above the other used as "chocks" to prevent the cozy from moving back and forth

foam pads under the nose

ratchet tie downs in the spar holes to prevent aircraft rolling

tie down along the top of the gear legs to prevent cozy from buckling foprward for any hard braking

 

took us 13 hours to load the trailer and abot 3 hours to unpack...

 

feel free to ask questions if you have any

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/osmCxk0c4Fa111ZI2

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Congrats!

 

It looks like you might be able to get the wings on in your garage.

Thanks Kent, yeah maybe one at a time :P

There is a support pole right in the middle of the garage, which would maybe be RIGHT where the wing tanks are....

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