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Curious about simple aerobatics


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I am wondering if it is possible to do any rolls or loops in a Cozy (or EZ for that matter). I dont mean any of that fancy stall stuff that is not possible in a canard, just real basic and simple. Has anyone tried and lived to tell the tale? Can a cozy with stand that kind of manuvers?

Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

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My hangar mate, Paul Mason, tells stories of doing frequent loops & rolls in his VariEZ and LongEz. The only problem with a loop, he says, is that she picks up speed REALLY FAST on the way down, so you need a lot of altitude to start. As you say, stall-type manouvers are a little more troublesome, but I believe they've been done. There was an aerobatic team from Europe (I think) that used LongEzs and used to put on quite a show.

 

Once I've got straight & level under my belt I'd like to try some of the basic stuff with someone who's done it before.

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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Originally posted by dust

The berkuit guy put on quite a show, oh wait a second he died, well ok build an acrobatic plane,the cozy is NOT an acrobatic plane

 

While you are correct that the canard family of aircraft is not considered "aerobatic", this isn't a good example to use of why.

 

Rick Fessenden was pulling over 9 G's at low altitude and blacked out, causing a roll and the crash. It was NOT a function of the airplane doing something - it was G-LOC. Could have happened in any plane pulling 9 G's. Actually, that would be a good example of how well built these planes are, that they can withstand 9 G's on a regular basis - more than the pilot, apparently.

 

At any rate, as John pointed out, any positive G maneuver is possible in the L.E./V.E./COZY aircraft. I've sat in the back of Ken Miller's L.E. while he did a 1 G roll, and if my eyes were closed, I couldn't have told that we were upside down. Loops, as John says, are NOT trivial due to the ease with which Vne can be exceeded.

 

So, the answer is yes, simple aerobatics are possible, and as long as the G loading is kept relatively low, and always positive, a TRAINED pilot should be safe. No negative G's, no inverted flight, no whip/hammerhead/etc. stalls.

 

I'm not trained, and I don't do aerobatics in my plane.

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Originally posted by mlefebvre

Interesting... Why can't you not fly inverted in a LEZ/VEZ/Cozy?

 

Couple of reasons. The airfoil of the canard has a LOT of camber, and will not be able to generate the lift necessary, which is coupled to Mike's statement about not having enough elevator (although if you built in enough elevator travel, you'd probably stall the canard at almost any speed - it would be interesting [via CFD analysis] to see what range of speeds could be maintained inverted). I wonder if anyone has done that analysis......

 

Second, the fuel/oil systems are not designed/built for inverted flight. This might be remedied, but if the aerodynamics don't support it, there's no reason to build an inverted capable engine.

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Ummm because the gas would all run out?

 

Why would you want to?

 

Lear 35 loop? or no.

 

No. A Lear 35 is cool enough and fast enough to never need to do aerobatics.

 

Ironically so is the Cozy

 

You want aerobatics?

Do a Citabria and/or a Pitts special. Take minimum 10 hours (I took 20 and wanted more) aerobatics training and choose a airplane designed for it.

 

That's my opinion, but I have tried aerobatic maneuvers in planes not designed for them but could handle them. I didn't enjoy it that much and you probably won't either (unless it's someone elses' plane) especially if it's your own personal airplane.

 

It's like: Dirt Bike / Road Bike

 

The Cozy is a "Road Bike"

 

Kevin

Back to building... #618 Cozy MK IV

 

My Cozy web pages, courtesy: Rick Maddy... :cool: WN9G :rolleyes:

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I'm sorry to be so short with you, but i'll add words now that agree with the rest.

 

the cozy is a cross country bullet, end of story

 

if you want aerobatics, then build/rent a plane designed to do it, it is as simple as that.

 

would you take a feriri/lamborgini dam i hate spelling, mudding, no.

 

It is the same with planes, acrobatics/cross country - pick one

 

enjoy the build, build the one that fits your long term goals

 

mike

maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

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I agree with the rest, particularly around inverted flight. Any airplane has to have its fuel and oil systems tricked up to maintain inverted flight. Even fighters. The tactical jets I flew (I won't date myself by listing them) had maybe 10 sec inverted fuel and no noticable inverted oil (although the bearings would outlast the fire). As Marc and Dust attested, EZ and Cozy don't have enough negative pitch authority to fly inverted.

 

I have done wingovers, aileron rolls, barrel rolls, etc. in my Long-EZ but not loops. In a loop (I'm told, and it makes sense) you run out of peanut butter just past vertical and your "loop" becomes more of a hammer head - then you try real hard to overspeed your prop and airplane pulling through.

 

EZ and Velocity do wingovers OK but get slow at the top. EZ barrel roll is also awkward at the top like the loop (never tried it in my Velocity). Aileron rolls are also pretty awkward. If you start even remotely level, it will scoop out so hell wouldn't have it. You need lots of nose up to start unless you have lots of speed. I keep a little more positive G and kick in all the rudder I have to increase the roll rate a little. Airplanes with as much aspect ratio as we have are just not going to roll.

 

That's my "acrobatic inventory". Wingovers, barrel rolls and aileron rolls. NO OVERHEADS (unless you count barrel rolls). With Velocity, just wingovers (so far).

 

But it's a much better cross country bird than a pitts.:)

...Destiny's Plaything...

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a.........ahem.......

 

From a newbie in aviation.

 

I have heard some serious stories about oil leaving the oil pan and pump when the plane is upside down........same with carb...

 

Someone said earlier.............Make sure you know what the plane can do, or that it is built for what you want to do..

Joseph@TheNativeSpirit.Net

I am Building a Jo-Z IV StarShip.

 

What Do YOU Want?

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Yes, we have all beaten to death the point that these planes are not aerobatic planes and are for cross country flight, yada yada yada.

 

I posed the question more for a discussion as to the technical issues and wondered about simple aerobatics out of curiosity. I probbaly would never try any either but was curious about them. It seems many people here dont really want to even discuss the possiblity. At an air show a few years back I saw a 737 doing a barrel roll and it was just amazing to see. We all know it wasnt designed for it. But that isnt the point. Its more interesting to debat if you could not if you should. :)

Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

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.... Simple aerobatics ....

Key word there. Wingovers, aileron rolls and barrel rolls qualify as "simple" aerobatics. You can do them in an EZ or Cozy (albiet somewhat marginally). It would be a VERY good idea to first actually do a bunch of those things in an airplane that is designed to do that stuff and is more forgiving of errors. Then try them in your Cozy but: a) Be at an altitude such that you have plenty of room to split-S, b) remember always that split-S is the worst possible way to recover from a botched maneuver and NEVER do it in a canard.

...Destiny's Plaything...

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Again, I dont plan on doing ANY aerobatics in any plane, but was curious about the manuvers that people HAVE tried and what IS possible given the design limitations of the LEZ/VEZ/Cozy/Etc...

 

No need to get surly...

 

:D

Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

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Fair question M,

Any manouevre not exceeding the G loading should be possible.

Inverted flight in any aircraft requires modification to the oil and fuel system.

Stall manouevres would be unwise, for if the main wing is stalled, with the canard and nose high, the C of G now rearwards would result in a "deep stall". This will lead to a massive sinkrate and a possible irrecoverable attitude.

Hello trees....

 

You are correct all aircraft can barrel roll, the 707 performed two barrel rolls over a Seattle yacht regatta when a prototype. Tex the chief test pilot (also chief test pilot of the X-1) was called in for an interview without coffee with the Boeing bosses and explained "Well Sir, you see it's a 1G manouevre".

I know an ex-RNZAF flight engineer who was witness to a barrel roll in a Hercules at night. No one in the back woke up.

:D

The Coconut King

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Originally posted by No4

Stall manouevres would be unwise, for if the main wing is stalled, with the canard and nose high, the C of G now rearwards would result in a "deep stall". This will lead to a massive sinkrate and a possible irrecoverable attitude.

Hello trees....:D

The attitude of the airplane does not determine CG. Nor does any fleeting aerodynamic condition. CG is determined by weight distribution in the airplane that may "migrate" but does not "shift". Actually, an EZ, Cozy, etc. will recover nicely from a hammerhead type maneuver provided the CG is (well) within limits. With the CG within limits, the airplane will fall right on through the "deep stall" attitude and end up flying - straight down, perhaps, but flying all the same.

...Destiny's Plaything...

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Sorry Jim, I can't back you up on flying hammerheads in canard aircraft. Tom Staggs (I think his first name is Tom) performed acrobatics in a EZ on the air show circuit. He had a couple of close calls while learning his routine and while examining the bounds of what acro maneuvers the EZ could and could not do.

 

He wrote a very sobering article about flying any maneuver in which the airspeed bleeds off rapidly. In canards, that's any maneuver where the nose is pointed high (vertical manevuers). Tom especially mentioned that hammerheads are really trouble. The airspeed bleeds off fast enough that a novice may have trouble managing the energy and will wait too late to get the plane turned. Forward airspeed bleeds off low enough that the novice won't have enough elevator authority to get the nose down to keep the energy in the plane and to keep the airspeed up. That leads to main wing stall.

 

I'm using the word "novice" to be any pilot not SPECIFICALLY trained in acrobatics.

 

You are correct, though, in that the plane will fall. But will it fall with the main wings stalled, or will it fall off to the side in a controlled manner?

 

Tom's bottom line was:

(1) Don't, don't, don't do acro unless you're trained, trained, trained to do it.

(2) Keep all EZ acro to positive G manuevers.

(3) Don't do any aero that bleeds off speed -- as in vertical maneuvers such as hammerheads, tail slides, etc.

 

PS--> Going vertical is EXACTLY how two canards that I've heard of entered into main wing stalls.

 

Wayne Hicks

Wayne Hicks

Cozy IV Plans #678

http://www.ez.org/pages/waynehicks

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I seem to remember Dick Rutan having a routine in a VariEZ/LongEZ at Oshkosh many years ago. I was quite young then, so the details may be way off, but I think he did loops and rolls, and ended the routine by cutting the engine at a rather low altitude, then did a couple 360s before putting it back on the pavement.

 

Matt

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As was discussed earlier, loops in our canards look like a script/cursif "l" - starts out looking like a loop, runs out of peanut butter at the top and only gets a little past vertical where the nose falls through very fast (like a hammerhead with no yaw) and starts flying again as the nose approaches vertical (down). At forward CG, the airplane WILL fall through. At partial fuel conditions, the fuel will slosh back to the spar, but will slosh forward again as the nose falls through (this could be something between a "shift" and a "migration" of CG) but with any rotational velocity at all (which it will definitely have) momentum will drive the nose through the horizon and on down and the fuel will slosh on to the front of the strakes. As I said before, the CG needs to be WELL within limits (nowhere near aft CG). I have talked to several guys who have done overheads in their EZ and NONE of them were able to maintain any noticeable positive G over the top. They were barely flying (if they started REALLY fast) or else the airspeed bled off to nothing somewhere past vertical and the nose fell through and they continued the maneuver/recovery.

 

That's the best information I have .... Jim S.

 

In any event, it's not much fun IMO to do even barrel rolls or aileron rolls in an airplane that has to struggle so hard to get through them at all.

...Destiny's Plaything...

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All this talk about doing aerobatics in the cozy is rubbish. The Cozy was not designed for it, built for it, nor tested for it. Anyone contemplating it has mush between his or her ears. Now,,,on a lighter note, here is a photo of the PROGRESS made on plane #1 last saturday by dust, mplafleur, and largeprime. Thane was off on an approved leave day and I was busy in the basement making progress fabricating the metal control parts for both planes. :o

post-140-141090151971_thumb.jpg

Dave Clifford

"The Metal Man" Musketeer

Vise grip hands and Micrometer eyes!!

 

Cozy MKIV Plans #656

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Sorry this thread is not on the approved list of topics. :confused:

 

Although keep in mind this is the Canard Forum, not the Cozy Forum, and there does seem to be some interest on the topic as it pertains to Canards in general.

 

I find it interesting to read and debate topics of engineering, aerodynamics, and materials. This is the "Coffee House" so, chatting on such topics should be valid.

 

If you don't agree with the topic or don't have anything to add to it, then just move along. Giving construction updates should probably be in the construction forum. lol. Although, this being the "Coffee House" all topics are ON topic. :P

 

A few people here seem to be of the thought "Shut up, build it to plans, don't ask questions that don't pertain to plans, dont make any changes, and fly it straight, and don't cause any trouble here.".

 

What ever happened to individual thought and expression of ideas and testing limits or at least discussing the possibility of what happens aerodynamically if you do. If everyone colored inside of the lines since the beginning of time, how far along we would be? There wouldn't be a cozy. There CERTAINLY wouldn't be a RUTAN building the more advanced and technologically innovative crafts ever thought of. It is interesting to read about the experiences of other's in testing the aerodynamic limits of the various canard designs, including the cozy.

 

I had hire expectations of this forum ... since we are "experimental" plan builders, aren't we?

 

Anyways... I have thoroughly enjoyed the responses... Thanks!!

 

Marc :D

Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

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Agreed, Marc.

This is not the place for "shut up and build - you're stupid to even ask" slams. That's over on the other list.

 

I probably won't EVER try anything remotely close to negative G or vertical, low speed aero in my plane, at least not on my own. I got that stuff out of my system many years ago in a plane with oodles of power and a fully aerobatic certification. However, I WAS enjoying this discussion, and have often wondered what's possible.

 

I suggest we congratulate Dave on the progress of plane 1, but otherwise ignore his negative comments and continue the discussion....

 

Where was I? Oh yes. Speaking of unusual attitudes, another value of this discussion, and some degree of practical experimentation, is knowing what the plane can do and how to control it if, god forbid, we get into what we RAF types used to call a UP (unusual position) by mistake - like in the old VFR > IFR disorientation senario.

 

i.e. You were busy slapping the kids when you inadvertantly entered IFR. According to the instruments you're now upside down at 2000 feet, falling sideways at 2000 ft/m while gently spinning clockwise. The kids are screaming and the wife is beating you over the head with her handbag. What do you do?

 

There's nothing quite like having been there and done that to help you survive a nasty situation like this. Of course we do everything to avoid getting there in the first place, but just for the sake of discussion let's say we screw up one day and find ourselves there. Stick to 15 degree banks all you're life and you'll be totally lost the day things go weird on you. Much better to get some experience while you were expecting it, you have a visual horizon, lots of height and someone who's done it before by you're side.

 

While the Cozy is certainly not suited to experimenting with this kind of stuff, I'd like to get just a leeetle bit closer to knowing what she feels like when it happens. So ---- personally, I'd like to hear from anyone who has ANY experience of aerobatics in a canard.

 

Wanna take a ride??? :D

I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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