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Landing a Cozy/Procedures?


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#1 AeroTesla1

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 08:01 AM

When entering the pattern, what would the procedures be, that differ from a more "conventional" G.A. A/C with flaps? How do you acheive slower speeds while on the downwind leg, base and final? Also, when you know you have the runway made, would you "chop" the power to idle? What is average ias when crossing the numbers?

Here's the closest video I could find, but there is zero explanation. Based on what I see with the pitch, it appears one must reduce power and perform slow speed flight, less the flaps:

Thank you!

Edited by AeroTesla1, 13 November 2017 - 08:12 AM.


#2 Kent Ashton

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:05 AM

That pilot had excellent pitch and aimpoint control but it appears that he flew final and landed fast.  It appeared to be more of a power-on approach than I usually fly.  Every pilot has his own understanding of how to fly a pattern but this is mine:

 

The main difference from a Cessna is the drag.  Rutan canards are a little like powered gliders.  With regard to fixed-pitch prop canards, leaving the downwind for base we would normally reduce to idle power or close to that.  We might bump the power up on base or final for a second if we get slow but we have to quickly return to idle or near idle (usually).  The only solution for getting high & fast is to slip or widen the pattern.   A high fast final is going to guarantee a long landing.  In a canard, the pilot must visually fly the airplane down the desired glidepath around base to touchdown and use power/slips to control speed.  If the correct pitch attitude is neglected the airplane will get fast very quickly, or fly above the glideslope easily.  In the video, his approach was very nice because his pitch control and aimpoint control were perfect.  The ratio of final approach speed (say 75) to landing speed (say 60-65) is 1.15:1 to 1.25:1, a little tighter than a Cessna but necessary because the airplane floats with excess speed.

 

With a typical trainer, the pilot would reduce power turning base but not to idle.  He would usually deploy half-flaps turning base.  On final, he might deploy full flaps and he usually carries some power on base and final.  The glidepath can be made very steep if needed with full flaps so there are more options there.  Because of the higher drag, power use is more important to control glidepath and pitch is of more use to control airspeed.  In the flare, the point to reduce power to idle depends on the flap setting used and rate of sink but reducing the power is generally followed by a landing shortly thereafter without much floating.  The FAA recommends a final approach speed of 1.3 x stall speed.

 

Proficient Cessna pilots transitioning to canards generally take a few landings to understand the speed control.  The big problem I see is that they try to control speed with pitch control--a Cessna habit--which gets them high or low on glidepath.   Some are not used to visually flying the airplane on a constant glidepath so the canard airplane flies up and down through the glidepath while getting slow and fast.

 

Sure, you could learn to fly in a canard, but the FAA might want you to take your checkride in a flapped airplane which would be quite different to land.  Lately, when I have had to land a Cessna, I really made some bad touchdowns.  Thank goodness for sturdy aluminum landing gear.


Edited by Kent Ashton, 13 November 2017 - 09:12 AM.

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#3 AeroTesla1

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:22 PM

Thank you. Everything you stated is logical. When I Pilot a Cessna, I add the 2nd notch of flaps on base leg, but do not reduce power, as long as I am in the white arc. On final, I add my last notch of flaps, trim, and once I know I have the runway made, I chop the lower to idle.

In the video, he touches down at 80-mph, which to me, seems a hair hot, but not by too much, consideri g the planes design and lack of flaps.

Will be interesting to fly in yours, in an effort to absorb as much information as possible.

In your Cozy III, if it were you and 1 other adult/"average in size", and full tanks, what would be your maximum baggage weight?

Thank you!

#4 Kent Ashton

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:59 PM

In the video, he touches down at 80-mph, which to me, seems a hair hot, but not by too much, consideri g the planes design and lack of flaps.

Will be interesting to fly in yours, in an effort to absorb as much information as possible.

In your Cozy III, if it were you and 1 other adult/"average in size", and full tanks, what would be your maximum baggage weight?

 

 

80 mph (70 kts) is reasonable if that was his actual speed.  Portales is a 4000 ft field elevation so it will be a faster TAS/GS than I usually see.  The amount of headwind also makes a difference so a video is hard judge.  I just liked his pitch and aimpoint control.  

 

In my Cozy III with O-320 I flew with myself (225), my dad (185-190), a 20 # tool kit and a couple of medium to small suitcases and nearly full fuel.  Takeoff performance depends a lot on the P.A. and temperature.   On a hot day or hot and high altitude, it will really get your attention.  The airplane will not fly until it can rotate.  You can't horse it off the ground as you might in a Cessna.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#5 AeroTesla1

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:31 PM

Kent,

What would you say/guesstimate the max pounds of thrust you are producing is?

Thank you!👍

#6 Kent Ashton

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:21 PM

Kent,

What would you say/guesstimate the max pounds of thrust you are producing is?
 

 

Ha!  That's a question for Marc.  I had a 150 hp engine so you might compare that to your electric hp.  I don't want to be a Debbie Downer but frankly, I think you're wasting your time with the electric motors and batteries.  Nothing beats the energy-density of gasoline.  How about nuclear?  :-)


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#7 montun23

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:40 PM

Ha!  That's a question for Marc.  I had a 150 hp engine so you might compare that to your electric hp.  I don't want to be a Debbie Downer but frankly, I think you're wasting your time with the electric motors and batteries.  Nothing beats the energy-density of gasoline.  How about nuclear?  :-)

 Kent, 

 

what is are your cruise speeds? I am considering an O320 on a cozy IV and was curious to know the performance numbers. I assume you have a Fixed pitch prop? could you provide your IAS and TAS at altitude with WOT or the regular 65%-75% setting?



#8 AeroTesla1

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:46 PM

Ha! That's a question for Marc. I had a 150 hp engine so you might compare that to your electric hp. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer but frankly, I think you're wasting your time with the electric motors and batteries. Nothing beats the energy-density of gasoline. How about nuclear? :-)


Plasma!

#9 Kent Ashton

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:25 PM

 Kent, what is are your cruise speeds? I am considering an O320 on a cozy IV and was curious to know the performance numbers. I assume you have a Fixed pitch prop? could you provide your IAS and TAS at altitude with WOT or the regular 65%-75% setting?

 

 

It has been a while and I don't recall the C-III speeds.  They were not much slower than my C-IV but here's the thing:  good takeoff and climb performance depends on excess power and 30 hp or more is a lot to give up during a hot, heavy takeoff or climb.  I expect you'd be satisfied with the cruise speed--on a 600 mile trip the difference between say, 145 KTAS and 155 is only about 16 minutes on a 4 hour trip.  The extra power does not help that much in cruise because it takes a lot of power to go faster at the right side of the drag curve.  I always fly leaned out anyway so I never get there as fast as I could.

 

People have used an O-320 on the IV and flown the heck out of them.  There was a doctor and his wife who also flew with his two kids in a C-IV/O-320 so it can be done.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs





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