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Minimum HP for the C-III?


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#1 AeroTesla1

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 06:23 PM

What is the minimum HP requirement for the Cozy-III, keeping in mind that there will be no gas combustion engine integrated into the air-frame? Most of the weight will come from the two front seated passengers and battery bank systems. Thank you!

Edited by AeroTesla1, 11 November 2017 - 06:24 PM.


#2 AeroTesla1

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 06:38 PM

I would like to add, that the dual electric power-plants will also be adding weight, but feel we will be far below the "standard weight" of a C-III with a gas combustion engine....

#3 Marc Zeitlin

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 07:35 PM

What is the minimum HP requirement for the Cozy-III, keeping in mind that there will be no gas combustion engine integrated into the air-frame?Most of the weight will come from the two front seated passengers and battery bank systems. Thank you!

The original COZY III used an O-235 engine, so 115 HP would be the minimum. The MGW of the COZY III was 1500 lb, although most people fly them at higher weights, due to empty weights that average around 1000 - 1100 lb.

 

If you're attempting to use electric power for a COZY III, you'd replace the fuel weight (46 - 52 gallons @ 6 lb/gallon, or 276 - 312 lb) with battery weight, raising your empty weight by that much and reducing the payload by that much (can't have 1/2 batteries).

 

Most COZY III's have O-320 engines, which are either 150 - 160 HP. The performance would be OK, but not great, with only 115 HP. With 150 - 160 HP, it's great.

 

Realize that given current battery energy densities, you may be able to get about 30 - 60 minutes of endurance for the plane, but no more than that. And that's if you're lucky AND good.



#4 Kent Ashton

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:24 AM

What do you plan to do with this electric airplane?  Maybe there are some factors you ought to consider, like flights of more than 50-75 miles are probably not in the cards.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#5 AeroTesla1

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 10:01 AM

Thank you for the detailed answers....very much.

First and foremost, we needed a sturdy kit plane, that was light weight and most importantly for us, provided side x side 2-place seating.

Fortunately, we came across the Cozy III, after a lot of other considerations. There are numerous reasons why the Cozy is the "ideal" A/C for this project, which will further be explaned at a later date.

The reason all of the above is very important, among other Cozy III features, is because we want to prove, that a viable 2-place, all electric Trainer, with a minimum/actual 90+ minutes/with reserves, of flight time, can be accomplished between charges or battery systems swap outs.

We are currently developing the propulsion systems, that will produce maximum thrust, without having to max out the throttle/burn up precious energy.

We are incorporating actual Nikoli Tesla technology, hence the name.

Well, don't want to bore you.

Thanks again!

Happy/Safe Flying!👍

Edited by AeroTesla1, 12 November 2017 - 10:10 AM.


#6 Kent Ashton

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 02:54 PM

Not boring at all.

 

I don't follow the battery technology much but consider this:  A Cozy III is not a good ab initio pilot-training aircraft because it's so different from the usual trainers.  It has no flaps, no short field/soft field capability to speak of--those skills are taught in the conventional trainers, the landing gear is not as tough as a Cessna's and it does not teach the sort of pattern speed control that applies in the usual trainers.  It might be OK to try out your ideas but you can't charge money to train people in it because it's an experimental.

 

Also, even trainers need a fuel reserve so to get an hour of useful time, you have to built it for maybe 75-80 minutes of total flight time.  Doing training--going up and down and flying patterns--takes more energy than just cruising around so you might need even more flight-time capability.

 

Just some thoughts here.  Good luck.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#7 AeroTesla1

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 03:18 PM

Not boring at all.

I don't follow the battery technology much but consider this: A Cozy III is not a good ab initio pilot-training aircraft because it's so different from the usual trainers. It has no flaps, no short field/soft field capability to speak of--those skills are taught in the conventional trainers, the landing gear is not as tough as a Cessna's and it does not teach the sort of pattern speed control that applies in the usual trainers. It might be OK to try out your ideas but you can't charge money to train people in it because it's an experimental.

Also, even trainers need a fuel reserve so to get an hour of useful time, you have to built it for maybe 75-80 minutes of total flight time. Doing training--going up and down and flying patterns--takes more energy than just cruising around so you might need even more flight-time capability.

Just some thoughts here. Good luck.

All very valid points, that escaped us due to the excitement of discovering this "Bird".

I knew she was hot when on final approach, but did not know why, now I do.

Seems she could use some speed brakes!

Also, I too have made some hard landings as a student pilot, and still do occasionally even with my ticket.

It is a shame, that one cannot earn thier PPL in an experimental, did not know that.

We were going to have the dual ducted fans move in a vertical axis, based on "FLAP" settings, but that can not happen now, since there are no flaps. Example: 10-degrees of flaps, would have the ducts directing 5-degrees of downward deflected thrust, 20-degrees would have moved the ducts downward to 10-degrees of downward deflected/directed thrust. Which would be a great help on soft field landings. Unfortunately, I do not feel the C-III will be the ideal A/C anymore for a Trainer concept. Must think about this further, as the ability to be a Trainer, is not a #1 priority. This first project, is only the first steps to an eventual affordable Hybrid, which we would have built using the 4-place Cozy as a platform.

Thank you for the insight and interest Sir.

Regards,

Al.

Edited by AeroTesla1, 12 November 2017 - 03:22 PM.


#8 AeroTesla1

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 05:01 PM

All very valid points, that escaped us due to the excitement of discovering this "Bird".

I knew she was hot when on final approach, but did not know why, now I do.

Seems she could use some speed brakes!

Also, I too have made some hard landings as a student pilot, and still do occasionally even with my ticket.

It is a shame, that one cannot earn thier PPL in an experimental, did not know that.

We were going to have the dual ducted fans move in a horizontal axis, based on "FLAP" settings, but that can not happen now, since there are no flaps. Example: 10-degrees of flaps, would have the ducts directing 5-degrees of downward deflected thrust, 20-degrees would have moved the ducts downward to 10-degrees of downward deflected/directed thrust. Which would be a great help on soft field landings. Unfortunately, I do not feel the C-III will be the ideal A/C anymore for a Trainer concept. Must think about this further, as the ability to be a Trainer, is not a #1 priority. This first project, is only the first steps to an eventual affordable Hybrid, which we would have built using the 4-place Cozy as a platform.

Thank you for the insight and interest Sir.

Regards,

Al.



#9 AeroTesla1

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 05:03 PM

Thank you for the detailed answers....very much.

First and foremost, we needed a sturdy kit plane, that was light weight and most importantly for us, provided side x side 2-place seating.

Fortunately, we came across the Cozy III, after a lot of other considerations. There are numerous reasons why the Cozy is the "ideal" A/C for this project, which will further be explaned at a later date.

The reason all of the above is very important, among other Cozy III features, is because we want to prove, that a viable 2-place, all electric Trainer, with a minimum/actual 90+ minutes/with reserves, of flight time, can be accomplished between charges or battery systems swap outs.

We are currently developing the propulsion systems, that will produce maximum thrust, without having to max out the throttle/burn up precious energy.

Well, don't want to bore you.

Thanks again!

Happy/Safe Flying!👍

#10 AeroTesla1

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 06:00 PM

I cannot help but to wonder, if the variable pitch ducted fans, could compensate for the lack of flaps, in all aspects of flight, when flaps would be needed. This is a new challenge to research and put into the computer model. Would be very interesting to find out the results.

Thanks again,

Al.

Edited by AeroTesla1, 12 November 2017 - 06:01 PM.


#11 AeroTesla1

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 06:11 PM

p.s. I see now, that the Cozy does in fact have an uncarridge speed brake.

#12 Kent Ashton

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:19 AM

I get the feeling that you're trying to develop an engine for an airplane you've never flown.  Are you a pilot?  There is nothing wrong with NOT being a pilot or NOT having flown a canard but the experience certainly helps.  What's your experience?  That will help a lot in answering your questions.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#13 AeroTesla1

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:57 AM

VFR Private Pilot since 1999. Zero Canard time.

#14 Kent Ashton

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:03 AM

VFR Private Pilot since 1999. Zero Canard time.

 

If you ever in my area N. of Charlotte, I will give you a ride.  It would help to see the difference.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#15 AeroTesla1

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:41 AM

That Sir, would be incredible! The offer is sincerely appreciated. Would be a great opportunity to share with you the design concept, and in return, receive some valuable input from you.

I really think you will be impressed with our ducted fan design, as there is no other like it, that we know of.

Should double or triple the thrust output of the E-Fan's EDF, with same power/170kw Siemans electric motors.

Which Cozy do you own/fly?

Regardless, I knkw it will be a great learning experience.

Regards,

Al.

Edited by AeroTesla1, 13 November 2017 - 11:42 AM.


#16 Marc Zeitlin

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:27 PM

Should double or triple the thrust output of the E-Fan's EDF, with same power/170kw Siemans electric motors.

Oy Vey...



#17 AeroTesla1

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:43 PM



Is this what you mean?

#18 AeroTesla1

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:48 PM

If "Oy Vey" does mean that (a negative Jewish term), I would have to say, I have never encountered a Pilot such as yourself....

Hope I am wrong about you Mr. Zeitlin.

Edited by AeroTesla1, 13 November 2017 - 03:54 PM.


#19 AeroTesla1

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:08 PM

If "Oy Vey" does mean that (a negative Jewish term), I would have to say, I have never encountered a Pilot such as yourself....

Hope I am wrong about you Mr. Zeitlin.


Oxford Dictionary Defininition: Indicating dismay or grief (used mainly by Yiddish-speakers).

#20 Marc Zeitlin

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 06:05 PM



Is this what you mean?

Yes. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence:

 

https://rationalwiki...dinary_evidence

 

It's not like Airbus's engineers are idiots.

 

If you truly believe that you can magically provide three times (or hey - lets be conservative, twice) the thrust with the same motor in the same size ducted fan, well, then, physics has been revolutionized. The only way to get more thrust is to enlarge the rotor - use a 10 ft. diameter propeller and you'll get a lot more thrust. I'm guessing that's not your tack, though.

 

Provide some calculations, data and evidence for your claims, or expect folks to be skeptical.


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