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Schedule of material and carbon cloth


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#1 B52

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 01:53 AM

I am a new member.  Need advice

 

Wings and fuselage moulds are made of aluminium. Using mirror finish surfaces. Into which I put

 

Release agent

Gel coat

2 Carbon layers

Divinycell

2 Carbon layers

Peel ply

Breathing membrane

Vacuum bagging

 

Need  help with schedule of material and carbon cloth type and weights, used in below You tube links.

 

 

Any input advise appreciated.  



#2 Kent Ashton

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:43 AM

I doubt you will get an answer here.  Are you trying to build the type in the video?  Is this your first airplane project?  


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#3 TMann

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:55 AM

For starters, Shoot the mold with an epoxy primer and let it tack up before you lay down your fabric.

It will come out of the mold looking beautiful and zero pinholes.

Gelcoat is too heavy.

 

You are correct as far as the resin to fabric ration but you could improve that if you take the next step and use Vacuum Infusion instead.

60% Fabric to 40% epoxy using standard techniques.

70% Fabric to 30% epoxy using double bagging technique. That's a better ration than pre-preg & autoclave.


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#4 B52

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:37 PM

I doubt you will get an answer here.  Are you trying to build the type in the video?  Is this your first airplane project?  

 

The Youtube links are in reference to the construction method I wish to implement for the skins.  Do you you know of another forum where I can obtain the material composition ? 

 

 

For starters, Shoot the mold with an epoxy primer and let it tack up before you lay down your fabric.

It will come out of the mold looking beautiful and zero pinholes.

Gelcoat is too heavy.

 

 
Thanks TMann  I hear that when it comes to UV,  epoxy primer deteriorates.  Any input appreciated.
 
 

 


Edited by B52, 27 March 2017 - 08:37 PM.


#5 Kent Ashton

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 09:41 PM

The Youtube links are in reference to the construction method I wish to implement for the skins.  Do you you know of another forum where I can obtain the material composition?


Probably the best thing you can do is visit builders of carbon fiber airplanes and pick their brains or offer labor in exchange for education. The sort of carbon fiber layup schedule you want is just not available on the internet. Even a composites engineer can't give you a layup schedule without knowing your design aircraft weight, G loading, wing span, etc.

Not to be rude but I ask again: is this your first airplane project? From your questions, it sounds like it could be.

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#6 B52

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 10:31 PM

The sort of carbon fiber layup schedule you want is just not available on the internet. Even a composites engineer can't give you a layup schedule without knowing your design aircraft weight, G loading, wing span, etc.
 

 

 Maximum Wing loading including canard.. (lb/ft2) = 24   Area (ft2) 123.785,  Span 32

 

 

Not to be rude but I ask again: is this your first airplane project? From your questions, it sounds like it could be.

 

My first full size project.  


Edited by B52, 27 March 2017 - 10:32 PM.


#7 Kent Ashton

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:16 AM

 Maximum Wing loading including canard.. (lb/ft2) = 24   Area (ft2) 123.785,  Span 32

My first full size project.  

 

 

Well, I don't know you so maybe your uncle is Mr. Boeing and you have access to a fully equipped CNC/composites shop and a crew to help you but if you're asking basic questions like this, I doubt it.

 

You noticed that they guy in those videos has a several helpers and they all work like this is not their first full sized project.  What you want to eat is a huge schnitzel.  Do you know that carbon fiber is around $35.00 per yard vs. maybe $7 for fiberglass?  Are you ready to put $100K into an unproven design?

 

Why not build something from plans--a Cozy, Open-EZ, a Vans airplane, even a Pietenpol--and see what's involved.  I have built a Cozy and an EZ and most of a BD-5.  You might be amazed at the time and head-scratching it takes to complete a full-sized airplane but the advantage is that when it's done you know it's going to be safe and flyable (except for the BD!).

 

And it sounds like you want to build a new canard design which is one of the tricky designs to make work properly.  You could build this thing over 15 years and find that it's unsafe to fly or requires 100 lbs of lead shot in the nose to make it safe.  The homebuilt world is littered with half-done projects.  Unless you complete your design, it will not be marketable.  Nobody wants to buy a half-finished mystery design.

 

Pardon me if I assume too much but I say this as friend with a tiny bit of experience.  Good luck.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#8 B52

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:01 PM

Why not build something from plans--a Cozy, Open-EZ, a Vans airplane, even a Pietenpol--and see what's involved. 

 

And it sounds like you want to build a new canard design which is one of the tricky designs to make work properly.  You could build this thing over 15 years and find that it's unsafe to fly or requires 100 lbs of lead shot in the nose to make it safe. 

 

Thanks for the pessimistic views according to which we would be still in the biplanes era, The 2nd video referrers to http://www.aerostruk.com/faqs/  is a one man band and his partner.  Advice and input from outside the box thinkers appreciated.



#9 Kent Ashton

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:32 PM

Thanks for the pessimistic views according to which we would be still in the biplanes era.


Well now you hurt my feelings.

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#10 Voidhawk9

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 07:42 PM

Thanks for the pessimistic views according to which we would be still in the biplanes era, The 2nd video referrers to http://www.aerostruk.com/faqs/  is a one man band and his partner.  Advice and input from outside the box thinkers appreciated.

 

Make sure you take it for its first test flight yourself. Would hate to see anyone else get killed.

We are not trying to annoy you. If you can't determine the layup schedule required for your own design, the whole process is in a lot of trouble. What works for a different airplane is not what is suited to any other.

 

If you cannot take advice, you or someone who trusts you will get hurt or killed.


Edited by Voidhawk9, 28 March 2017 - 07:42 PM.

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#11 Jon Matcho

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 06:50 AM

Any input appreciated.


Apparently that's not the case.

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#12 TMann

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 06:21 PM

Jacob,

If you wanted to bring forward a new design, you should run your design past a professional engineering service to determine any shortcomings.

They will point out any design shortcomings and determine a layup schedule based upon the materials you have available.

 

I would lean towards the flat tow carbon fiber weaves.

 

As far as mold making, most are getting excellent results using tooling gelcoat followed by a lightweight fiberglass then heavier layers.

The best mold release I have used is from Zyvax (Flex-Z)

 

Epoxy primer works fine, You're going to paint over it, correct.

 

Given the tools available (like SolidWorks) and the resources that are available globally, there is a pretty good chance you could bring forth a new kit/design successfully.

 

Go forth and research.


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