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#41 Kent Ashton

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:33 AM

It is coming but not as fast as I would like. 

 

 

I would say you're a rocket, but with no pics, it could all be fiction.   :-)

 

Only thing I'd say on spar caps is to fill the trough but don't build in high-spots.  A pair of tweezers helps for picking the red thread and cross threads out of the UNI tapes.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#42 Kent Ashton

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 10:44 AM

My cousin and his friend are building a Cozy.  Here is the centerspar chapter.  They are doing nice work and are not overly anal about it.

 

http://cozy.caf.org/...-14/index.shtml


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#43 flyingclay

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 07:37 PM

I have been taking pic but not as many as I probably should. I went to the airport today and I couldn't put the front on the spar because the slow epoxy wasn't fully cured so I went ahead and glassed the inside of the turtleback. This was probably the most painful of all the layups so far. I did it like the plans say and put the form on the ground and instead of using five minute epoxy for the gluing of the foam, I used hot glue. It attached well and I hope it will come out of the mold easily. My back is killing me because of being bent over for the layup and applying the peel ply. 



#44 flyingclay

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:59 PM

OK, I just updated my Facebook page, You can check it out at "Cozy build log" is my name on Facebook and I just added pics up to the center spar, Ill take pics of the turtle back tomorrow when I go to the airport. This should prove it is not fiction. There are even two pics of me holding the fuselage sides with the bulkheads on the floor of the hanger to prove its actually me but I do not take selfies of me and the plane, a friend took those pics. Let me know what you think, thanks.



#45 flyingclay

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 09:02 PM

Kent,

 

I have been checking out almost every post of Charles cozy, I am also hoping to put a (shhhhhh) rotary as well. Thanks for the link.



#46 Jon Matcho

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 06:56 AM

I need to upgrade my epoxy box to Charles' design.  I also need to upgrade my "factory" the same.   :)

 

I wouldn't go with a rotary engine at all unless you're an absolute automotive gear head and that in itself thrills you.  Go with a Lycoming-type engine if you want to get in the air.  Keep that in mind as you have plenty of time to get to that decision.  

 

Here's how I've been told the overall effort breaks down:

  • 1/3 is the airframe
  • 1/3 is the engine, plumbing, electric and avionics
  • 1/3 is paint and finishing

Lots of work and thanks for sharing -- it's motivating!

 

Just my $0.02.


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Developer & Builder
Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark VI+ (widened rear)
www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho (I know, it's broken... for now)


#47 TMann

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:12 AM

...I am also hoping to put a (shhhhhh) rotary as well.

 

Get on the Fly Rotary list for information and support that is Wankel specific. (www.flyrotary.com)

You'll never burn a valve by flying lean of peak. .... or throw a rod, or blow a jug, or .....


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18
Velocity/RG N951TM
Mann's Airplane Factory
We add rocket's to everything!
4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

#48 Kent Ashton

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 09:01 AM

I have been checking out almost every post of Charles cozy, I am also hoping to put a (shhhhhh) rotary as well. Thanks for the link.

 

Do your homework.  Marc had a good summary in this thread

http://www.canardzon...bility/?p=18850

 

Since then, 

Chris Barber - abandoned his rotary for a Continental

Cozygirrls - building since about '01 and their rotary is not flying yet

John Slade - no offers to buy his Turbo rotary Cozy at $45,000.  I don't know if he sold it.  He made it work but flew it very few hours

Steve Brooks - sold rotary Cozy cheap, buyer is re-engining

 

The web is full of enthusiastic "I'm using a Rotary" writeups.  People are less forthcoming when they never finish their projects, or swap them for airplane engines, or fly very few hours, or can't sell the airplane.  


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#49 TMann

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 09:21 AM

Al G. sold his Mazda 20B powered Velocity for $129,000

I don't follow sales much.

 

If you want a Rotary, you'll need to sign-up on one of the rotary aviation lists.

You will not find anything in the way of support here on anything other than Lycoming/Continental and perhaps a couple of other air-cooled solutions,

 

The point is, build what YOU want to fly.

I'm sure you are also aware of www.Mistal-Engines.com as well, yes?


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18
Velocity/RG N951TM
Mann's Airplane Factory
We add rocket's to everything!
4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

#50 Jon Matcho

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 09:28 AM

Excellent points Kent, and I totally agree.  

 

I did see that Perry Mick chimed in on that post.  There have been others with temporary successes, but as you point out it's often transitional.  Personally I would never buy a plane that had a rotary engine in it.

 

Cozygirrls - building since about '01 and their rotary is not flying yet

 

The CozyGirrrls are an exception.  If they want to fly a rotary, they will.  As with everything they do, they do the hell out of it and take their sweet time to get it "perfect" (a curse).

 

Back on point:  If you want to fly later rather than sooner, go with a Rotary engine.


Jon Matcho :busy:
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Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark VI+ (widened rear)
www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho (I know, it's broken... for now)


#51 TMann

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 09:48 AM

I was riding back from an EAA meeting we had at Central Cylinder here in Omaha. Steve Bennett (Great Plains Aviation) was driving and we were talking about various auto conversions. Steve's company specialized in VW conversions and had been at it for a very long time.

 

He summed it up like this:

If you went into a car dealership and you were looking at a $35,000 vehicle and the salesman told you will have to add  a quart of oil every 4-500 miles and the engine will require a total overhaul at 85K miles, would you consider that to be a good deal?

 

A 200hp Lycoming will cost $35K plus new. I chunked $22K in rebuilding my IO-360-C1C for my Velocity.

Sorry if I'm not sold on the economics of this technology.

 

Like I said, you won't find the support for a water cooled solution here. You'll have to look elsewhere.

If you want to talk to someone who has a working example, Kent mentioned John Slade. You can find him on www.CanardAviation.com


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18
Velocity/RG N951TM
Mann's Airplane Factory
We add rocket's to everything!
4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

#52 Kent Ashton

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 10:48 AM

Al G. sold his Mazda 20B powered Velocity for $129,000

 

 

That airplane is currently registered with a Superior IO-360 (Lycoming clone).

https://flightaware....istration/N755V


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#53 Andrew Anunson

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 10:59 AM

Excellent progress... I don't do Facebook, so I can't check out your pictures.  My wife has it, so I'll look at the pictures later.  You are building fast....

 

I think rotary engines are really cool (owned 2 RX-7's in the 90's).... and its sweet to see a an EZ or Cozy flying with one installed... "Only 3 Moving Parts!!"

But c'mon... they just don't seem to pan out.  Lets be honest here....

 

Other Rotary Abandonment's:

Bulient Aliev (Buly) - Flying rotary to Lycoming

Rick Russell - Flying rotary (Renesis) to Lycoming

 

Has anybody ever switched from a flying Lycoming to a Rotary (EZ or Cozy)?

The EZ's and Cozy's that fly regularly and go places use airplane engines.

 

If you went into a car dealership and you were looking at a $35,000 vehicle and the salesman told you will have to add  a quart of oil every 4-500 miles and the engine will require a total overhaul at 85K miles, would you consider that to be a good deal?

 

Is this an argument to not buy a rotary engine car?  You just described the typical RX-7 / RX-8.

 

A 200hp Lycoming will cost $35K plus new. I chunked $22K in rebuilding my IO-360-C1C for my Velocity.

Sorry if I'm not sold on the economics of this technology.

I bought my 180HP Lycoming O-360A4M (was currently on a flying RV-9) for $9000.  Its a mid time engine (half way to TBO).  I'll get 1000 hours of it... and there are only a handful of Cozy's that have that many hours in the entire fleet.

 

Its really hard to beat the economics of buying a currently flying mid-time engine (with maintenance records and history).

Brand new experimental 360's are less than $35k... I've seen them recently in the mid 20's.

 

 

 

Like I said, you won't find the support for a water cooled solution here. You'll have to look elsewhere.

 

There used to be a lot of support for alternative (water cooled) both here and on the Van's building forum.... most of that is gone now, as you say.


Edited by Andrew Anunson, 30 May 2017 - 11:04 AM.

Andrew Anunson
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#54 Jon Matcho

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 11:37 AM

I'm sure you are also aware of www.Mistal-Engines.com as well, yes?
 
A 200hp Lycoming will cost $35K plus new.

 
www.mistral-engines.com
 
From a 2010 KitPlanes article (the bolding is mine):  "The last time we had a firm price for the engine was in 2006, and that was $35,900 for the 230-hp turbocharged, two-rotor G-230TS and $31,500 for the 190-hp normally aspirated G-190 two-rotor."  I wonder what they charge today for those willing to test?
 
Any and all purpose-built aircraft engines are expensive, some more than others.  Regardless of the engine, even if it were free, you still need to spend significant time and $$$ to get comfortable with it carrying whatever precious cargo.
 

You will not find anything in the way of support here on anything other than Lycoming/Continental and perhaps a couple of other air-cooled solutions,


The popular consensus among the community -- not just here -- is that aircraft engines are best for most to get into the air with. There's more support, parts, and community options for maintaining such engines.
 

The point is, build what YOU want to fly.


Fully agree. It's up to you Les, and feel free to break new ground in the Auto Engine Conversions section of the Powerplants sub-forum here when you're ready.  In the meantime keep up the great progress!


Jon Matcho :busy:
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Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark VI+ (widened rear)
www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho (I know, it's broken... for now)


#55 flyingclay

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 12:21 PM

Thanks for all of the input. I just got back from the airport and installed the front on the center spar. I have it all glued up and clapped on the front and weighted down on the back. I drilled 1" holes in the interior bulk heads and grooved out some foam and filled it with micro. I am still waiting for the seatbelt tube before I can finish the seat back support and install the bottom on the fuselage. The plans say to wait three days for the spar to fully cure, I used fast setting mix of epoxy for the micro of the front face, should I still wait three days or can I remove it tomorrow if the micro is cured? I would like to have my table back soon, my back still hurts from yesterdays turtleback layup on the ground. I have a dragonfly, and it first came with an underpowered 1835 VW engine and since I have installed a 3100cc corsair engine that I rebuilt myself with William Wynns parts and manual, I do like working with engines and building but I also like to fly and I know there will be some hurdles to go through with the install of a Rotary, I owned two RX7's in the 90s. I had a first generation in the early nineties and then got the second gen later. I never had a problem with the engine but did have some transmission problems. The engine install is still a ways out and if I can find an aviation engine that is a good value I might install it. In the meantime I am going to build the plane to specs and make it light. I am going to have to take a break on building for the month of June, I will be out of the country and when I return I will get back to it. I am going to go to Oshkosh at the end of July and My airport has the cheapest gas in all of MN, 100ll is 3.99 a gallon right now. If you are going to fly and are coming through this way I would love to talk and see some flying Cozy,Velocity, long eze, or other Rutan derivatives. Again thanks for all the input and Ill keep you posted on my progress.



#56 TMann

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 01:33 PM

I am going to go to Oshkosh at the end of July ......

 

Be sure and drop by the Vacuum Infusion demo while you are there.

We are talking about doing some "hands on" labs to let folks get some experience with the process.

 

In the meantime ...... try the electric blanket trick to maintain proper temperatures during the cure. It still a bit chilly in the northern latitudes and every trick/tip helps.


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18
Velocity/RG N951TM
Mann's Airplane Factory
We add rocket's to everything!
4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

#57 flyingclay

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 09:20 AM

I did my last layup for a month. I got the shear web for the center spar done and peel plied yesterday. I will be gone for a month and then when I get back Ill be able to work at it until Oshkosh. I am going to try to make it to the vacuum infusion, and also seeing and harassing all you cozy fliers. The Dritz electric scissors were great at cutting off the excess cloth after glassing the shear web and before peel ply. It is supposed to get to 91 degrees today so I think it should cure well. By the time I get back it should be warm enough that I should not need any more supplemental heat. I still need to do the reinforcements for the turtle back before pulling it from the mold. I am planning on a forward hinge canopy and am wondering if I need to add the headrest support or if I can just use a reinforced strip to keep that area behind the from seats more open. Maybe just a cross piece that will sit on the seat back and a roll over structure. I like what the cozy girls did with their canopy but I would rather have only one seam for water to leak into the cabin. 



#58 Jon Matcho

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:20 AM

I like what the cozy girls did with their canopy but I would rather have only one seam for water to leak into the cabin. 

 

Good point.  Simplicity is a good thing, to keep the overall effort down, but I'm sure they've thought that through a bit.  It does look quite good.

 

8-16-08.gif


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Building Cozy Mark VI+ (widened rear)
www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho (I know, it's broken... for now)


#59 flyingclay

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 10:56 AM

I do like that but like I said I don't think I could do as good of a job as them and I do not think I could keep it from having a leak. I need to get down and see their Cozy. It looks amazing and I think I could learn a lot. Thanks for the photo



#60 flyingclay

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 06:23 PM

I have returned to the state and have been back to the airport. I finished both spar caps on the center spar. It was 90 degrees on saturday when I did my first and then 87 the next. It took over 6 hours for the bottom layup with having the glass cut and ready to go. It took 9 hours on sunday including cutting the glass. I need some advice. I must have sanded the trough to much and now have a depression in a couple spots. How should I put the 4 plies of uni over the caps? should I fill first? should I sand down the lip of the drought and glass over and fill later? I am a bit lost on my nest step. I did install the hard points for the seatbelt and cut out the two access holes. I have also finished the seat back support and am getting ready to attach the bottom of the fuselage. Any and all help with the spar issue would be greatly appreciated. I do not want to do something that I have to scrap all the work that I already did.

 

Thanks and hope to see you at Oshkosh.

 

by the way my home airport has 100LL for 3.99 a gallon. JYG St. James MN and I will be there until saturday before oshkosh and back on thursday after I return from Oshkosh.






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