SOLD: 1997 aerocanard kit, barely out of the box

[aerocanard1]

Helping the widow of a friend find a new home for this project. Not sure what the value is.  More details upon request.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jon Matcho]

I am sorry for your loss, but I suspect your friend would be happy to know you're looking to get this to a new home.

 

These parts are from master-builder Jeff Russell, before Al Aldrich bought the company www.aerocad.com

 

The foam cores are good for Cozy Mark IV builders (a larger market), and they should be identical.  You can price against www.eurekacnc.com

 

The fuselage, instrument panel, nose, and seats would be good for a Cozy Mark IV builder as well.

 

I'm not sure about the 2 spars and I-beams, but as a whole I would expect someone to be interested.

[macleodm3]

I have never needed to pay more than 1/2 price when purchasing new Cozy items secondhand.  If I was interested in these parts, I would be willing to pay around $3000, although I would make certain that I had a copy of the AeroCAD assembly manual for these kit parts.  This manual is not the same as the AeroCAD plans (which are a copy of the Cozy MKIV plans).

 

If the sellers are not in a big hurry to sell the parts, they can post to the C-A list, the Cozy Builders list, this forum, and the other forum once in a while.  They need to include an asking price and be willing to negotiate.

If they are in a big hurry to sell, then they can list the package on ebay with a starting bid of $1 (and let our community know about the auction).  

 

There are not alot of people building the Rutan designs these days, as most new builders seem to be choosing the RV kits (since the kits are SO good, and SO easy to build quickly).  

[Kent Ashton]

If I was interested in these parts, I would be willing to pay around $3000

 

 

It's fun to appraise this.  I agree with you.  He drove it off the lot so now it's a "used car".  However, his $8000 cost after 9 years of 3% inflation makes it worth about $10400 if he was buying it today.  Is that a canopy under that paper?  It looks to me like you'd have to pay $10K for that today, new-on-the-lot.  I would say $4k to 5K is more reasonable.

 

 

There are not a lot of people building the Rutan designs these days, as most new builders seem to be choosing the RV kits (since the kits are SO good, and SO easy to build quickly).  

 

 

I know what you mean.  Has Van's sucked up all the energy?  There's a lot to recommend the RVs but nobody walks out of an air-conditioned FBO to look at another RV-6/7/9//10/12.  I think it's also a matter of no formal support.  The Rutan/Puffer designs are all orphans now.  If a newbie knows nothing about them, it hurts sales.

[macleodm3]

No, I don't see a canopy under paper, I see the molded fuselage top from AeroCAD.  And yeah I agree, the new cost today is perhaps $10k for those parts... but these are old parts.  The buyer takes a risk with these items, and won't have any "support" from the current owners of AeroCAD.  

 

The way to market these parts is to show a builder that they can save money vs. purchasing the raw materials and building from plans.  Most of us would rather save the money and build from plans.  If we look at the raw material cost to build the items that are for sale, it won't be much more than $4000.  But yeah, $4000 to $5000 is a fair price for the stuff.... it all depends on if anybody wants to buy it.  It would sure save a lot of effort and time, and the secondhand AeroCAD items that I have collected over the years have all been high quality parts.

 

As far as Van's sucking up the energy, yes I think they are the best option for most new builders.  Most RV kits actually get finished.  I suppose that electronic gadgets have sucked up more energy then all the homebuilts on earth put together.  I know a bunch of people whose favorite hobby is to watch TV and play on their phones.  

[Jon Matcho]

...nobody walks out of an air-conditioned FBO to look at another RV-6/7/9//10/12.

 

The only reason I find myself looking at an RV is to take a peek at the panel and interior.  I'm just not interested in rivets I suppose.  

 

It would sure save a lot of effort and time, and the secondhand AeroCAD items that I have collected over the years have all been high quality parts.

Very true. My outside fuselage is not yet skinned, and I'm half-tempted to trade for the fuselage, seats, and panel/bulkheads.

 

There are a few builders out there, and some fledgling kit companies in the works, but you're also right about the "official" builder support.  Then again, isn't that a major consideration when going the plans route?  As insurance for when/if there is no official support?  

 

For this years election, I am voting for the "Save Shop Class" party.

[Rivilee]

Sooo, where are you located? How do we get in touch?

[aerocanard1]

Portland, Oregon  

smojo9@gmail.com

Merrill

[Rivilee]

Oh. Wrong answer. Should have been Tullahoma, TN

[Rivilee]

For this years election, I am voting for the "Save Shop Class" party.

[macleodm3]

There are a few builders out there, and some fledgling kit companies in the works, but you're also right about the "official" builder support.  Then again, isn't that a major consideration when going the plans route?  As insurance for when/if there is no official support?

 

Yes, that is often a major consideration when going the plans route.  The items listed for sale in this thread are not parts for a plans built Aerocanard or Cozy... they are kit parts for some version of a kit built Aerocanard.  

 

Perhaps some of the parts could work for a Cozy or plans built Aerocanard, but without the factory support it going to be difficult to get an answer.  

 

My parts built by Aerocad were sold as parts for a plans built Cozy MKIV.  They fit very well and all the dimensions (except the wooden hardpoints for the rear seat built on the main spar) are correct.

[Jon Matcho]

Perhaps some of the parts could work for a Cozy or plans built Aerocanard, but without the factory support it going to be difficult to get an answer.ar seat built on the main spar) are correct.

It's very possible the fuselage is the dimensions of the Cozy Mark IV. An easy way to determine that would be to measure the seatback and instrument panel bulkheads.

 

The fuselage might be for the widened Aerocanard FG, which can be plans-built as well (it's basically the Cozy Mark IV with the widened rear area). You can get Aerocanard FG plans for plans-building from Aerocad today (and I would recommend getting the Cozy Mark IV plans as well; using those as much as possible).

 

I agree with you -- best would be to contact Al at Aerocad to fully identify these parts. I would have no idea what to do with that 2-part main spar.

[Kent Ashton]

Whatever model it is, with a set of Cozy plans, I think I'd be easy to use those parts.  They are all basically the same airplane.  

 

I agree with you -- best would be to contact Al at Aerocad to fully identify these parts. I would have no idea what to do with that 2-part main spar.

 

I don't see a the 2-part main spar;  the spars I see are just the inboard ends of the wing spars that will join to the (main) center spar.  It all looks pretty standard and would be easy to finish with a set of plans--either Aerocad or Cozy.

[Jon Matcho]

Whatever model it is, with a set of Cozy plans, I think I'd be easy to use those parts.  They are all basically the same airplane.

True, but for a first-time builder addressing all that might be overwhelming when looking for every 0.1" to match up. FWIW, I built the plans-built Aerocanard FG tub and nothing matched up that well in the area of the landing gear bulkheads (had to build them twice). It would definitely have been easier if I had a pre-built fuselage tub to reference!

 

I don't see a the 2-part main spar;  the spars I see are just the inboard ends of the wing spars that will join to the (main) center spar.  It all looks pretty standard and would be easy to finish with a set of plans--either Aerocad or Cozy.

Ah, I see, thanks! Maybe I should pick this up 

[macleodm3]

It's very possible the fuselage is the dimensions of the Cozy Mark IV. An easy way to determine that would be to measure the seatback and instrument panel bulkheads.

The fuselage might be for the widened Aerocanard FG, which can be plans-built as well (it's basically the Cozy Mark IV with the widened rear area). 

 

Keep in mind... the Aerocanard "Plans Built" airplane has the same dimensions as the Cozy MKIV... every dimension is the same (except perhaps the firewall shape is  more rounded for the Aerocanard so that an IO-360 fits better).

Do the the widened Aerocad kits use the same length main spar?  I don't know.  

 

The Aerocad kits do not correspond with the plans as we know them (Cozy or Aerocanard).  The kits came with videos and instruction sheets. 

 

 

Whatever model it is, with a set of Cozy plans, I think I'd be easy to use those parts.  They are all basically the same airplane.  

 

Although I have made some arguments against these kit parts, the purpose of the arguments was to reflect the re-sale value of these kit parts.  I do agree that having these parts would be very beneficial to a builder.  Although Nat Puffer evidently did not like many of the changes that Aerocad made to the Cozy MKIV design, there is nothing wrong with the Aerocad kits or designs.  Jeff Russell (Aerocad) built very nice parts, even if he didn't follow Burt's and Nat's construction methods to the "T".  

 

 

Ah, I see, thanks! Maybe I should pick this up 

 

Somebody should... the parts are way too nice to waste.  My only advice to whomever buys these kit parts is to know for sure what you are getting and know (inspect) the condition of the parts.  

[Jon Matcho]

Keep in mind... the Aerocanard "Plans Built" airplane has the same dimensions as the Cozy MKIV... every dimension is the same (except perhaps the firewall shape is  more rounded for the Aerocanard so that an IO-360 fits better).

 

To be clear, the following Aerocanard Plans-built options are as follows:

• Aerocanard SB ("standard body") = Cozy Mark IV
• Aerocanard FG ("fixed gear") = Cozy Mark IV but with the following customizations:
  • Widened firewall
  • Widened landing gear bulkheads
  • Widened turtleback
  • Widened rear cowlings
  • Opportunity for wider canopy

I have both plans.  There's little reason to buy Aerocanard SB plans -- buy Cozy Mark IV plans instead.  

 

The Aerocanard FG plans are essentially Cozy Mark IV plans marked up to show the widened dimensions.  However, Al at Aerocad has since made an attempt to clean-up the plans, moving towards true Aerocanard FG/SB plans, but I have not yet seen the results of this (nor do I volunteer to verify every single dimension, etc.).  You can get specifics from www.aerocad.com on that.

 

 

My only advice to whomever buys these kit parts is to know for sure what you are getting and know (inspect) the condition of the parts.

 

Ah, now I'm a touch discouraged from buying them sight unseen and having shipped across the country.    

 

 

 

[macleodm3]

To be clear, the following Aerocanard Plans-built options are as follows:

• Aerocanard SB ("standard body") = Cozy Mark IV
• Aerocanard FG ("fixed gear") = Cozy Mark IV but with the following customizations:
  • Widened firewall
  • Widened landing gear bulkheads
  • Widened turtleback
  • Widened rear cowlings
  • Opportunity for wider canopy

 

Thanks for clearing that up.  The only Aerocanard plans that I knew about were the ones that were free several years ago, and those are essentially Cozy MKIV plans.  Its nice to know that Aerocad offers a set of plans for the FG.

 

Are the two sets of plans (SB and FG) actually two different set of plans, or are the FG modifications available as addendums (kind of like the RAF plans for hidden rudder belhorns)?

 

Ah, now I'm a touch discouraged from buying them sight unseen and having shipped across the country.    

 

I wasn't worried about you Jon... more concern for a new builder that isn't aware of pitfalls of secondhand parts.  Believe it or not, I bought my engine sight unseen, and had it shipped across the country... Reno, NV to Pound, VA.  RV-9 to a Cozy MKIV.  I believe the engine will be much happier in the Cozy.

[Jon Matcho]

Thanks for clearing that up.  The only Aerocanard plans that I knew about were the ones that were free several years ago, and those are essentially Cozy MKIV plans.  Its nice to know that Aerocad offers a set of plans for the FG.

 

Are the two sets of plans (SB and FG) actually two different set of plans, or are the FG modifications available as addendums (kind of like the RAF plans for hidden rudder belhorns)?

 

The Aerocanard SB/FG plans are just one set with different lines drawn on the larger drawings.  There's additional markup and dimensions written as to what the bulkheads should be sized to.  There may be a mark-up or two in the written part of the plans, but I cannot recall off-hand.

 

It was not as easy as I expected when I set out to build a widened Cozy Mark IV (AKA Aerocanard FG-sized fuselage).  In other words, my landing gear bulkheads did not originally fit and I had to build a second set.

 

Since I bought the plans, I do know Al @ Aerocad put in a fair amount of work to enhance them, but not sure if they ever finished.  I do recall some measurements/numbers were not accurately picked up through the OCR process (which is why I recommend only using Aerocanard plans for the widened parts, and then reverting to the Cozy plans).  Minimally a plans-built Aerocanard needs to prove those new plans.

[magnum]

Hello,

   I am looking for parts to get back on my project if there are any with this kit or a dead project. I need a front castoring wheel assembly and rear brakes. If you know of any, please PM me.

 Thanks

 Tom

[macleodm3]

Welll... Thats great! I hope you are feeling better... I remember you were having some back pain.

 

Here is a list of parts that I have never seen for sale secondhand..(or at least not for a good price)

Matco Triple puck Brakes/ wheels/ axles

Cozy MKIV nose wheel fork / swivel

Control System Hardware

CG Engine Mount Type 1 dynafocal

Lord engine mounts

 

Although its taking me a long time to build, I have saved some big $$ by getting good parts secondhand. I have an 8" Saber prop extension on the way to me now... Got it less than half the price of a new one (and its never been used). Some guy on barnstormers had his IO-360 for sale....pictured with an 8" Saber. I called him up about the extension (the engine had already sold) and he was happy to sell the Saber.

 

My main landing gear, nose gear, nose gear retract, wings, and main spar are all secondhand, and all half price.

 

You can save some money seconhand, but if you are ready for the parts, its best to just buy them new.

[magnum]

Thanks Andrew,

    I am thinking a lot like you. I just want to try to find stuff as much as I can for now. I have seen these parts for sale in the past and it all depends on how bad someone needs to sell the their project as to what they will let go and for how much.

     I still have some time till I can get my current project done and get the bird set up in the shop to get started on it.

 Thanks

~~~tg~~~

[Rivilee]

Tom,

Good to hear you're going to keep at it. If I had figured out a way to come up with the cash I was gonna pull the trigger on your deal!

Rick - Tullahoma

[EZ Speed]

No, I don't see a canopy under paper, I see the molded fuselage top from AeroCAD.  And yeah I agree, the new cost today is perhaps $10k for those parts... but these are old parts.  The buyer takes a risk with these items, and won't have any "support" from the current owners of AeroCAD.  

 

The way to market these parts is to show a builder that they can save money vs. purchasing the raw materials and building from plans.  Most of us would rather save the money and build from plans.  If we look at the raw material cost to build the items that are for sale, it won't be much more than $4000.  But yeah, $4000 to $5000 is a fair price for the stuff.... it all depends on if anybody wants to buy it.  It would sure save a lot of effort and time, and the secondhand AeroCAD items that I have collected over the years have all been high quality parts.

 

As far as Van's sucking up the energy, yes I think they are the best option for most new builders.  Most RV kits actually get finished.  I suppose that electronic gadgets have sucked up more energy then all the homebuilts on earth put together.  I know a bunch of people whose favorite hobby is to watch TV and play on their phones.  

 

Be careful here, when you say these are old parts. There are many builders out there that have been building on their project for more than 20 years. What you said implies that their airplane with older composite layups may be structurally inadequate. This is certainly not the case. I don't think is was Gary Hunter, but I once read that composite aircraft have about a 100 year lifespan. If that's true, then these molded AeroCanard parts are still good to go for about another 80 years or so, depending upon how they've been stored. The exposed foam is the only part of this kit that I'd be at all concerned about.

 

And, the support comment was completely inaccurate, and without merit. AeroCad kits, components, and parts are being supported. Public comments like this can be damaging, and can easily find a person in a courtroom. Tread lightly. These are litigious times that we live in.

[EZ Speed]

Just to be clear. Jeff Russell designed the AeroCanard to help builders get flying years sooner. It was estimated that Cozy-style canard aircraft builder could save about 1000 hours of build time, if they incorporated all of the pre-molded parts from Aerocad. Those hours add up to years.

 

Jeff developed four different AeroCanard models.

 

• AeroCanard SB -  (Small Body) This model is an exact molded version of the Cozy MKIV.
• AeroCanard FG -  (Fixed Gear) This model is a widened version of the Cozy MKIV in the rear seat area. And the molded top and turtleback was both wider and taller, to allow for more headroom.
• AeroCanard RG - (Retract Gear) This is the same as the FG model, but has fully retractable main and nose gear systems.
• AeroCanard SX -  This is the newest model that incorporates all the benefits of the FG model, but has a more modern looking upper fuselage area that mimics the look of a pressurized cabin aircraft.

One of my favorite benefits of building a molded kit airplane is the contouring of the airplane is reduced down to a fraction of the time needed to contour a plans-built/scratch built composite aircraft. There is only minimal contouring/blending at the intersections of the adjoining molded parts after they're assembled. Contouring is not always fun, and I've done more than my share of it over the years. The molded parts pop from the mold primed and ready for assembly. They're virtually ready for paint, after a bit of prep work.

 

As far as the plans fit into all of this... Jeff designed the AeroCanard plans in different formats.

• AeroCanard Plans-Built (scratch-built) plans.
• AeroCanard Kit-Built (molded parts) plans.
• AeroCanard/Cozy supplementary plans for those wanting to incorporate molded parts into a Cozy MKIV.
• 10 DVD set of AeroCanard construction videos featuring Jeff Russell walking a builder through the process.
• All of the full-size "M Drawings" in CAD format.

Finally, the kit depicted in the picture at the beginning of this topic is not a complete AeroCanard kit. It consists of a molded fuselage tub (not sure what model) that can be identified by measuring at the firewall end of the fuselage. A molded "FG" top. Molded wing spars that have the leading edge cores microed to the spars. All of the hot-wired wing and winglet cores. These I'd inspect closely for exposure. If found to be in questionable shape I'd scrap them for new ones. The ones microed to the wing spars can be easily removed, and the spars re-prepped for new foam cores. Side windows, but no canopy bubble. Fresh air naca scoops. AeroCanard molded instrument panel. This is the panel that has the co-pilot side canted slightly for better viewing by the pilot. Molded electrical conduits to fit the contour of the fuselage interior walls. Molded nose cone. Molded front and back seat bottoms. The I-Beams are for assembly of the trailing edge wing cores to achieve a perfectly aligned trailing edge prior to final skinning of the wings.

 

Whoever buys that kit will save mucho hours of fabrication time.

[Jon Matcho]

And, the support comment was completely inaccurate, and without merit. AeroCad kits, components, and parts are being supported. Public comments like this can be damaging, and can easily find a person in a courtroom. Tread lightly. These are litigious times that we live in.

 

That's good to know -- but I'd get with www.aerocad.com.  Still, the vibe I took from Andrew's post -- which I favor -- is that one is on their own when buying second hand parts.  You do not know how banged around these parts might have been over time.  This isn't a problem for many, but might be for some.

 

I also think we can dial down the fear factor for getting sued.  You can find a ton of unflattering statements and articles written about very sizable companies without corresponding lawsuits.  There's nothing remotely lawsuit worthy in Andrew's comments here.

 

If you have a connection with AeroCAD, do tell.