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#141 Kent Ashton

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:38 AM

The EZ in post #111 relisted at $30,500, $1,500 price cut.

http://www.canardzon...e-seen/?p=60747

 

This is an O-235 model.  I was just thinking that for the speed and efficiency you get with the EZ family, what a bargain they are.  You could not build this airplane for $30.5K today and a comparable Vans airplane will not be found at the price.  I looked through all the RV sales on B-stormers and the closest was a single-place RV-3 for $27,500.  


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#142 Kent Ashton

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:18 AM

Two today.  A Cozy III project on ebay.  The wings and what I can see of the fuselage look pretty good.  Something could be made of this.  Also a Cozy IV project on B-stormers but no pics.

 

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-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#143 Kent Ashton

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:49 AM

Barnstormers:  New-to-me Cozy today and a cheap engine mount for you rotary fans.  No pics of the Cozy inside.  The EZ has been listed before but seller has a set of plans listed separately.  I saw a $25K Cozy listed on Facebook, acquired from an estate sale; finished but not yet flying; O-320.  It was gone the next day so it must have been snapped up.

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Edited by Kent Ashton, 14 February 2018 - 08:52 AM.

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#144 Kent Ashton

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:17 AM

For historical reference, Cozy above is N244CZ, built 2000.  I just noticed that he only wants to sell to a prior canard owner or A&P.  Hmmm?


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#145 montun23

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 08:12 PM

Barnstormers:  New-to-me Cozy today and a cheap engine mount for you rotary fans.  No pics of the Cozy inside.  The EZ has been listed before but seller has a set of plans listed separately.  I saw a $25K Cozy listed on Facebook, acquired from an estate sale; finished but not yet flying; O-320.  It was gone the next day so it must have been snapped up.

the facebook cozy is back on barnstormers. the wings, strakes and fuel tank was built using Vinyl epoxy. good engine though. 0 SMOH, all logs and last ran 12/2017



#146 Kent Ashton

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:04 PM

the facebook cozy is back on barnstormers. the wings, strakes and fuel tank was built using Vinyl epoxy. good engine though. 0 SMOH, all logs and last ran 12/2017

 

Ah yes.  Appears to be N357FR.  I dunno about the vinyl ester.  Here is a post from Gary Hunter--usually our go-to guy for anything-epoxy.  Bottom line seems to say stick to the recommended building epoxies.

 

Having worked in the epoxy AND vinyl ester industry for over 32 years now... I feel I am qualified to do so.  

 
Many of you have read my inputs to the group over the years.  One thing you should remember is how adamant I have been about a "POST CURE".   i.e., a secondary curing step using elevated temperatures to promote complete cross - linking.  
 
Epoxy resins will not cure completely on their own under ambient temperature conditions.  Once the polymer network gets to a certain point, the cross-linking slows dramatically - almost a complete stop.  Over the next couple years as the project or flying article goes through seasonal and regional temperature fluctuations, it will creep along and cure a little more.   Basically, these temperature fluctuations are POST CURING the laminates.   But, it will never EVER completely cross link, even under these type temperature conditions.   From a mechanical properties perspective, the polymer is plenty strong.   But, from a chemical resistance stand point, it has vulnerabilities.    
 
Epoxies are used to manufacture chemical resistant fiberglass pipes, tanks and structures every single day.  The most chemical resistant formulations used in the industry are cured with AROMATIC amines.   And, every single article is heat cured and/or POST CURED.  Believe you me... if they could get away without heat curing - they would.   Nuff  said?  
 
Vinyl esters are used to manufacture these same articles, but most importantly, they are used to make underground storage tanks for gasohol - which is probably why we are interested in using vinyl esters for our fuel tanks.  Many of these articles, do NOT receive a Post Cure, and perform as good as or better than a post cured epoxy.   WHY?     
 
Vinyl esters cure under a different mechanism.   A free radical cure mechanism - will develop a much more complete cure without a Post Cure than will an epoxy for a couple reasons.   First, it is a very fast reaction, as noted earlier.   And as such, it generates quite a bit of heat in the process.  Depending on how thick the laminate is, the heat build up in the laminate from the exotherm can be quite dramatic - and provides a  POST CURE effect.  In fact, the exotherm can be quite problematic in some cases.   But, as noted earlier - the free radical cure mechanism is inhibited in the presence of oxygen - i.e. it is anaerobic.  This is why there is almost always a sticky or soft surface on cured vinyl ester laminates that are exposed to the air during cure.  Even though this under-cured layer is only 2-3 miles thick, it is NOT going to provide the same degree of chemical resistance.   If your laminate or coating is only 10 mils thick, your are in trouble. 
 
Most important to understand,  underground storage tanks for gasohol do not have to deal with this issue because they are built from the inside out.   i.e., the surface that is going to be exposed to the gasohol, is the surface next to the mold surface.  So, there cannot be any air inhibition of cure.   
 
However, the FRP tank "LINING" industry is more relevant to our situation because the final layer is exposed to chemicals.  However, there are some important things to know.  There is no reason to line a steel tank for resistance to gasohol.  And, the chemical resistant FRP industry, in general, uses a special surfacing veil on the exposed surfaces.  This surfacing veil can be a special "C" glass or a synthetic material called "Nexus".   These veils are ~ 10 mils thick.  The area weight of the veil is such that when saturated with resin, the layer will be about 10% reinforcement, and 90% resin.  This 10 mil thick surface layer provides a RESIN RICH layer that will cure more completely, and provide a more resistant surface layer.   Plus, these laminates are usually a minimum of 1/8" - 1/4" thick.  As such, they generate quite a bit of exotherm heat energy to Post Cure the laminate somewhat.       
 
Now, if your are using a vinyl ester to make a 1, 2 or even 3 layer laminate to line your fuel tanks, chances are, these laminates are way under-cured for at least two reasons.   #1 - the laminate was too thin to develop any exotherm energy to promote a post cure effect (a post cure would fix this).   #2 - the inhibition of cure due to the presence of oxygen and your laminate is too thin.   # 3 - Chances are you are not using any kind of surfacing veil.   This, I believe is the reason gasohol is destroying these vinyl ester laminates in our fuel tanks.  
 
To combat this "air inhibition", the FRP industry at one time, used a special polyester or vinyl ester resin formulation that contains a small amount of "paraffin wax" dissolved into the resin.  As the resin cures, the paraffin wax will phase separate and migrate to the surface forming a thin barrier film to the oxygen.   However, I don't believe this is being practiced any more.  The wax reduced the chemical resistance of the entire laminate and obtaining secondary bonds to this "waxy" laminate was impossible.  This caused a lot of problems in the marine industry, but makes for nice artificial reef.  
 
So....   We are fortunate that EZ Poxy is in fact cured with an AROMATIC amine.  And as such, has the potential to be THE most chemical resistant epoxy available to home builders.   In the past, without a post cure, it has demonstrated resistance to mogas, (sans alcohol), while others did not.   I firmly believe that EZ Poxy, with a POST CURE, will resist mogas with alcohol - even without a surfacing veil.    
 
POST CURE ! 
Gary Hunter

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#147 Kent Ashton

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:06 PM

Pics of the above:

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  • watermark.jpg
  • 357fr.jpg

Edited by Kent Ashton, 15 February 2018 - 10:10 PM.

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#148 Rudy Davila

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 11:28 AM

Curios were the info on the epoxy came from? Was it in the builders log?

#149 Kent Ashton

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:22 PM

Curios were the info on the epoxy came from? Was it in the builders log?


Manju apparently talked to someone familiar with the airplane. Post #145 above

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#150 montun23

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:27 PM

Manju apparently talked to someone familiar with the airplane. Post #145 above

Was in touch with the seller. he said that a person who previously inspected this project got in touch with him and told him about the epoxy. Thats when the seller switched the ad to "for parts"



#151 Kent Ashton

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:37 PM

I see that the Cozy III project in post #142 did not sell.  Bidding only went to about $1300.  I don't know why sellers start the bidding at $100 when their reserve is in the thousands.  It just wastes everybody's time.  For an ebay sale, I would state my reserve in the ad or start the bidding just below the reserve, or just use a "make offer" ad.  I have bought a lot of junk on Craigslist over the years but when the seller doesn't put a price on his item, or a car-seller doesn't list the milage, I don't waste time on them.  "Serious Only!"  :-)

 

Cozy III on B-stormers yesterday.  I bet some nice graphics would help to sell it.  For reference: N89MC

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Edited by Kent Ashton, 19 February 2018 - 07:39 PM.

-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#152 Don

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 06:29 PM

Was in touch with the seller. he said that a person who previously inspected this project got in touch with him and told him about the epoxy. Thats when the seller switched the ad to "for parts"


Is there a way to tell if Vinyl resin was used? I’m going to look at the plane tomorrow and look through all the paperwork.

#153 Marc Zeitlin

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 01:10 AM

Is there a way to tell if Vinyl resin was used? I’m going to look at the plane tomorrow and look through all the paperwork.

Here's what the current owner told me:


"He said the builder acquired the wing spar and fuselage already complete by someone who started the project. The builder then told him that he used the vinylester throughout the rest of the project."

 

I'd say that's a pretty good indication that vinylester resin was, in fact, used.

Given what Gary Hunter says about Vinylester curing in thin layers (using standard epoxy techniques) quoted by Kent in post #146 above, I would argue that this plane is a candidate for a chainsaw and that it's good for parts only (where parts is anything OTHER than the structure). It MAY be worth buying, given that, considering the asking price. I certainly wouldn't fly in it.

 

I do not, for the life of me, understand why people do things like this... 5 - 10 years of work for nothing, to save what - $300?



#154 Kent Ashton

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 05:06 PM

A Cozy IV project with $43,000 of materials and 1000 hours of labor for #13,000.  No, this is not a scam.

 

See post #93    http://www.canardzon...e-seen/?p=60354  and Craigs post today where he is selling this project.  

http://www.canardzon...oject-for-sale/

I saw this one a good many years ago and the workmanship was very good.  I'm sure Craig continued that.  A deal doesn't come any better than that.  I will give my loyal readers a day to move on this deal, then just buy it and store it for my heirs or keep it for a spare airplane.

 

Not too often you can buy dollars for 20 cents each.  :-)


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-650 hrs, Long-EZ-55 hrs


#155 Don

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 07:00 PM

Looking at the airplane and paperwork it appears the wings were built using EZpoxy!





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