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Alternative Suppliers (not Wicks or ASS)


goatherder

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Does anybody have a favorite alternative vendor for the following:

(Preferably in the Puget Sound or Portland, OR region)

 

Divinycell Foam

 

Dow Pipe Insulation billets

 

Hexcell 7715, 7725, 7781 and 6781 fiberglass

 

West system 703 carbon fiber tape

 

Any info would be appreciated.

Marc Oppelt

Olympia, WA

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2

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OK guys - I'm going to display my (vast) ignorance here. I presume the 703 tape is used to replace the UNI tape for the spar lay-ups. Since this tape is only .010, are you just replacing the lay-ups as called out, or are you filling the area by increasing plies for the final thickness?

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Depends on what you are doing.

When I did my sparcap for the canard, I calculated my spar tapes based on the depth of the trough.

Note: The layup schedule needs to be calculated. It's not a matter of doubling the tapes.

 

I'm using the Berkut wing templates as well as the Berkut layup schedule for those sparcaps and wing skins.

 

Same thing on the CS spar. When using the Berkut CS Spar construction method, use the cap layup schedule as outlined in the drawings.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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OK guys - I'm going to display my (vast) ignorance here. I presume the 703 tape is used to replace the UNI tape for the spar lay-ups. Since this tape is only .010, are you just replacing the lay-ups as called out, or are you filling the area by increasing plies for the final thickness?

this tape is used in the Berkut only and should not be used on any of the other types of canards. it is not a direct substitute if you are building to the plans.

Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years

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it is not a direct substitute if you are building to the plans.

And therein lies the disclaimer.

I don't think that a warning as quoted above, constitutes as much of a deterant as the price.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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How about 3/8" divinylcell...I need about 480.00 of that according to ACS?

I'd like to spend less if possible. =) Anybody know of a "Foam-R-Us store or "Foam Depot" out there???????????

Self confessed Wingnut.

Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.?

Get up off that couch!!! =)

 

Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.

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Foam Depot. Thats funny.

 

FiberglassSupply.com carries some Divinycell - I don't think they carry 3lb but maybe 5lb. However, the 5lb is alot stronger and the weight penalty vs the 3lb is like 8lbs in a fuse. Maybe a little more with the strakes included.

 

They carry one type of the Hexcell glass too...I think its the 7781.

I read in Hexcell's product literature that they came up with a new process which improved the strength properties of their 6781 S-2 glass so much that they started using this same process on their 7781 E-glass and improved the 7781 substantially.

 

I'm going to call these guys and see if they sell more than what they list on their site.

 

Re: Berkut wing plans - where can I get the info needed to do the glasswork properly. Also - its my understanding that Berkut wings are the same dimensions as Long-EZ wings and are interchangeble, no?

Marc Oppelt

Olympia, WA

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2

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Foam Depot. Thats funny.

 

FiberglassSupply.com carries some Divinycell - I don't think they carry 3lb but maybe 5lb. However, the 5lb is alot stronger and the weight penalty vs the 3lb is like 8lbs in a fuse. Maybe a little more with the strakes included.

 

They carry one type of the Hexcell glass too...I think its the 7781.

I read in Hexcell's product literature that they came up with a new process which improved the strength properties of their 6781 S-2 glass so much that they started using this same process on their 7781 E-glass and improved the 7781 substantially.

 

I'm going to call these guys and see if they sell more than what they list on their site.

 

Re: Berkut wing plans - where can I get the info needed to do the glasswork properly. Also - its my understanding that Berkut wings are the same dimensions as Long-EZ wings and are interchangeble, no?

the wings are the same dimension except the for the trailing edge. the berkut has a straight trailing edge and the long ez cowling will not fit.

Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years

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the wings are the same dimension except the for the trailing edge. the berkut has a straight trailing edge and the long ez cowling will not fit.

Ctually there are more differences than that. If you are truly interested you should acquire the drawings.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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the wings are the same dimension except the for the trailing edge. the berkut has a straight trailing edge and the long ez cowling will not fit.

Thanks for that - my cowlings would be roll-your-own anyway.

 

Marc, are you considering starting you own project?

Yup. I been schemin'...but I probably won't actually have much time at home until sometime next spring. I just want to get my sources together so I know where to go to buy stuff. Preferably sources close to home.

 

These planes are built out of materials that are used in other industries, not just aviation. It stands to reason that there ought to be cheaper sources around. I hate being bent over.

 

I mean - 75 cents for a 2.5" grade 8 bolt? Come on.

Marc Oppelt

Olympia, WA

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2

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I mean - 75 cents for a 2.5" grade 8 bolt? Come on.

not sure what that is suppose to mean relative to these aircraft. we don't use grade 8 bolts in aircraft. if you mean aircraft bolts in the ACS or Wicks catalog are expensive, its because of the specs that these bolts are made to. much higher standards then the common grade 8 bolt. as for all the materials used in these aircraft you may find a substitute that seems suitable at first glance but if it is not you may not get a second glance. finding the plans spec materials at a better price is OK but you should be very careful that it is the same stuff and not just because a salesman said so.

Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years

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I mean - 75 cents for a 2.5" grade 8 bolt? Come on.

 

As said before, the aircraft bolt is not a grade 8. Specific stats can be found in the ASS catalog or just google An-??

 

The metal in these bolts is tested and certified to specific strength numbers. Grade 8 is a somewhat brittle metal and may vary bolt to bolt. The aircraft bolt will stretch before it separates, not so with the more brittle grade 8. Additionally, the threads are rolled, not cut which adds more strength to the bolt. The length of the thread and grip is also specified. The quality, size and metallurgy is constant and they are Cad plated.

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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I mean - 75 cents for a 2.5" grade 8 bolt? Come on.

Yeah, I knew that would stir the pot. I wasn't planning to use bolts from Home Depot.

 

Mcmaster-Carr sells Mil-spec 150,000psi bolts with an "Ultra corrosion resistant" coating that's supposedly many times more corrosion resistant than cadmium plating. They are 1/3 the price of the same size AN bolt at Wicks.

 

Grade 8 bolts are used in high-load applications. They bolt flywheels onto crankshafts for example, bolt the reciprocating internal parts of an engine together, and are used extensively in automobile suspension systems, which routinely see shock loads way in excess what an aircraft will experience in flight.

 

Any system is only as strong as its weakest link...and I'll submit that the 150,000 psi bolt that is holding together your PLASTIC airplane aint gonna be it.

 

But...to each his own. Thats why you have to paint that word on your plane. (the X word)

Marc Oppelt

Olympia, WA

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2

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But...to each his own. Thats why you have to paint that word on your plane. (the X word)

That will only get you so far. You still have to pass a FAA/DAR inspection and if you are using cheap parts ...... well, you know the rest.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Yeah, I knew that would stir the pot. I wasn't planning to use bolts from Home Depot.

 

Mcmaster-Carr sells Mil-spec 150,000psi bolts with an "Ultra corrosion resistant" coating that's supposedly many times more corrosion resistant than cadmium plating. They are 1/3 the price of the same size AN bolt at Wicks.

 

Grade 8 bolts are used in high-load applications. They bolt flywheels onto crankshafts for example, bolt the reciprocating internal parts of an engine together, and are used extensively in automobile suspension systems, which routinely see shock loads way in excess what an aircraft will experience in flight.

 

Any system is only as strong as its weakest link...and I'll submit that the 150,000 psi bolt that is holding together your PLASTIC airplane aint gonna be it.

 

But...to each his own. Thats why you have to paint that word on your plane. (the X word)

yes they do have bolts that are stronger in there own way. but try to buy only one of those bolts from Mc master. if you have to but ten to get one it won't be that cheap. and try to get bolts in 1/8" increments with the short threads that AN bolts have. and they don't tell you the grip length of the bolts and they don't have bolts that come in 1/8" grip length increments. without the correct grip length you will have threads in shear or a lot of thread sticking out of the end of the nut and thats not the way it is done in aircraft for structural reasons. do the bolts come with safety wire and cotter pin holes drilled in a bolt with the correct fine pitch thread, NO. yes you could drill the holes yourself but then you loose the ultra corrosion coating. there are not that many bolts in our plastic airplanes to make it worth going the cheap route, you might save $100 on a $ 60,000 aircraft and most of them hold on things I do not want to loose during a flight. but if you have a better and cheaper way then anyone has discovered in the last 100 years of aviation have at it.

Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years

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I have been pleased to recently find out that the Fastenal store (and catalog) sell aircraft bolts, washers, nuts, cotter pins, and screws. They have a good selection. I have ordered several individual screws and bolts. The girl at the counter gave me a price discount for cash sales, there is no shipping, and I had the parts in a few days. The price before the discount was similar to Aircraft Spruce.

 

I continue to use Aircraft Spruce and Wicks for supplies, but its nice to get a close source if you just need a few items.

 

Also, NAPA sells the chemicals needed to prepare and alodine aluminum. No shipping, good price, and no Hazmat fees.

Andrew Anunson

I work underground and I play in the sky... no problem

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Good to know - I have a Fastenal store 5 min from home. Tacoma Screw also, another fastener supply house. So I can go there for all the critical stuff.

 

I understand about threads in shear and I wouldn't do that.

 

No I wouldn't be drilling the bolts myself - life is too short for things like that. However; looking thru the Long-EZ supply lists on Wicks site I don't recall seeing any drilled bolts shipped in their chapter kits. (Maybe I missed 'em.)

 

So I figured I'd just be making do with nylocks and Locktite.

Marc Oppelt

Olympia, WA

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2

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Good to know - I have a Fastenal store 5 min from home. Tacoma Screw .

I contacted Tacoma Screw, and they can supply AN hardware, but at about twice the cost of ACS and Wicks. You may have better luck with the salesman than me though.

 

If you total up the cost of the AN hardware vs, other sources you probably will not save enough $$ to justify the time spent on this site justifying it :).

 

I did find a contact for 2024 aluminum and steel in Peirce and King county. The sales rep didn't think they could necessarily beat ACS prices but with shipping and time a factor they may be a good source. The sales rep also told me that they had a good contacts for small project machining. I will try and remember to bring the info home tomorrow.

 

Also, one of the things that I find myselft wasting $$ on is shipping cost, particularly epoxy. The hazardous materials fee can really add up. Try ordering in larger quantities of foam, glass and epoxy where possible.

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Twice the price, eh? Well I'm not surprised. I have a discount thru them but still they're expensive. The last half of their name is a verb.

 

Metal Superstore in Lakewood (I think) should have Aluminum and 4130. Probably not cheap but available. If they don't have it they can send you in the right direction.

 

I have contact info for the regional distributor for Daib foam (Divinycell) and he's somewhere in the 360 area code so I'm going to call him for where to buy info.

Marc Oppelt

Olympia, WA

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2

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