Anyone putting 0-235's or 0-320's in varieze's?

[jhicks]

To me it seems like the 0-200 is not a lot of power for this plane. What do you guys think? Are there guys putting 0-235's or 0-320's? does this also pick-up the gross useful at all?

 

PICS WOULD BE NICE TOO.

 

 

Thanks,

Jamie

[very easy]

To me it seems like the 0-200 is not a lot of power for this plane. What do you guys think? Are there guys putting 0-235's or 0-320's? does this also pick-up the gross useful at all?

 

PICS WOULD BE NICE TOO.

 

 

Thanks,

Jamie

I've seen the occational one over time including a jet engine. The jet uses 39 gallons per hour at 10,000 feet. Does not increase your max take off weight, but the extra weight will reduce the amount of fuel you can carry and/ or passenger weight.

[MacGyver]

The O-235, stripped of extras (starter, etc.) was approved by Burt (RAF) for the VEZ. RAF sold plans that detailed this installation, and quite a few VEZs have O-235s. IM(experienced)O, the O-320 is too much engine for the VEZ, unless you seek a single-seat crotch rocket that climbs like all hell. Virginia Skiby had an O-320 VEZ years back, and ran it in races. I doubt that airplane could compete these days.

 

The problem with adding a heavier engine to an airplane that was designed for lighter engines lies with the need to reinforce structure, and knowing how to do that. I would not simply bolt an O-320 on my VEZ without knowing what else I had to do with the airframe.

 

Adding a heavier engine will do nothing for your gross weight. Max over-gross for the VEZ (assuming you DON'T follow the latest recommendations from Burt on the VEZ) was 1110 pounds, with a 1050 pound limit for landing, and at least a 90 hp engine. If you did not build the VEZ to begin with, and entertain adding a bigger engine to up the gross weight capability, forget it, and get a Long-EZ. All the bigger engine will do on a VEZ is reduce your gross weight, and increase the risks associated with the operation of an overloaded airplane.

 

The O-200 is quite adequate for the VEZ. I have flown a VEZ with an 85 hp, as well as a 100 hp engine. Both perfomed well. I have a 617 pound (empty) VEZ with a stock O-200, and Electroair EI replacing one mag. I can get off at near gross (1200 pounds for my own airplane) at Jackpot Nevada on a 100 degree F day, and have enough runway margin to be comfortable. FWIW, my 1200 pound gross was not an off-the-cuff conclusion. Being the builder, I knew exactly how well-crafted all the airfarme structures were, I knew that the airframe had no hidden anomalies (e.g. sparcap swelling/distortion in one VEZ that prompted Burt to issue his latest operational limitations recommendation recently), and being an aerospace engineer, I knew how to "run the numbers" for my airplane.

 

As for jet-powered canards, I have seen a Cozy done this way, and I think I've seen a Long-EZ done this way, but never a VariEze.

 

Personally, if going for a higher HP engine for a VEZ, I'd consider the Jabiru 3300, but I'd wait for others to spend the time and $$$$ proofing-out the installation and gathering/accumulating the service experience.

 

The VEZ is best built/kept as light and simple as possible. I always felt sorry for those VEZ drivers who had 750 pound (empty) airplanes. They would never get to feel the acceleration and climb that one experiences in a 600-pounder.

 

 

-Joe Person

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[very easy]

The O-235, stripped of extras (starter, etc.) was approved by Burt (RAF) for the VEZ. RAF sold plans that detailed this installation, and quite a few VEZs have O-235s. IM(experienced)O, the O-320 is too much engine for the VEZ, unless you seek a single-seat crotch rocket that climbs like all hell. Virginia Skiby had an O-320 VEZ years back, and ran it in races. I doubt that airplane could compete these days.

 

The problem with adding a heavier engine to an airplane that was designed for lighter engines lies with the need to reinforce structure, and knowing how to do that. I would not simply bolt an O-320 on my VEZ without knowing what else I had to do with the airframe.

 

Adding a heavier engine will do nothing for your gross weight. Max over-gross for the VEZ (assuming you DON'T follow the latest recommendations from Burt on the VEZ) was 1110 pounds, with a 1050 pound limit for landing, and at least a 90 hp engine. If you did not build the VEZ to begin with, and entertain adding a bigger engine to up the gross weight capability, forget it, and get a Long-EZ. All the bigger engine will do on a VEZ is reduce your gross weight, and increase the risks associated with the operation of an overloaded airplane.

 

The O-200 is quite adequate for the VEZ. I have flown a VEZ with an 85 hp, as well as a 100 hp engine. Both perfomed well. I have a 617 pound (empty) VEZ with a stock O-200, and Electroair EI replacing one mag. I can get off at near gross (1200 pounds for my own airplane) at Jackpot Nevada on a 100 degree F day, and have enough runway margin to be comfortable. FWIW, my 1200 pound gross was not an off-the-cuff conclusion. Being the builder, I knew exactly how well-crafted all the airfarme structures were, I knew that the airframe had no hidden anomalies (e.g. sparcap swelling/distortion in one VEZ that prompted Burt to issue his latest operational limitations recommendation recently), and being an aerospace engineer, I knew how to "run the numbers" for my airplane.

 

As for jet-powered canards, I have seen a Cozy done this way, and I think I've seen a Long-EZ done this way, but never a VariEze.

 

Personally, if going for a higher HP engine for a VEZ, I'd consider the Jabiru 3300, but I'd wait for others to spend the time and $$$$ proofing-out the installation and gathering/accumulating the service experience.

 

The VEZ is best built/kept as light and simple as possible. I always felt sorry for those VEZ drivers who had 750 pound (empty) airplanes. They would never get to feel the acceleration and climb that one experiences in a 600-pounder.

 

 

-Joe Person

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

What is the new max. take off and landing weight Bert recommends, MacGyver? How does flying with increased figures go when making an insurance claim? The Jabiru engine you are mentioning, is that the one made in Australia? That engine is plagued with valve problems. Two Jabiru engines in out club had to have valves done up three times in the last year.

[Lynn Erickson]

To me it seems like the 0-200 is not a lot of power for this plane. What do you guys think? Are there guys putting 0-235's or 0-320's? does this also pick-up the gross useful at all?

 

PICS WOULD BE NICE TOO.

 

 

Thanks,

Jamie

Bill Ortel's O-320 powered varieze going 200 KTS. does not seem that the little extra weight is hurting him any. if you want a volkswagen use a 0-200, if you want a turbo porsche use a O-320

[longez360]

Hey MacGyver, can you make a helicopter out of a hills hoist? ;-)

[very easy]

Bill Ortel's O-320 powered varieze going 200 KTS. does not seem that the little extra weight is hurting him any. if you want a volkswagen use a 0-200, if you want a turbo porsche use a O-320

"a single- seat crotch rocket that climbs like hell" Macgyver

 

Guess it depends on your point of view.

[Lynn Erickson]

"a single- seat crotch rocket that climbs like hell" Macgyver

 

Guess it depends on your point of view.

Who said anything about single seater A closer look at the picture reveals the copilot sleeping while going 200 KTS.

[MacGyver]

Hey MacGyver, can you make a helicopter out of a hills hoist? ;-)

With sufficient duct tape, yes, and as long as the hoist is not full of Ocker grundies...

 

-Joe

[MacGyver]

OK, my bottom-line take.

 

If you bought your airplane, and did not build it, and are completely new to experimental homebuilts, and have no other good hands-on aviation experience, I'd not advocate going out and blindly hanging a far-bigger engine on a VariEze. Bill "Duck" Oertel is an extremely talented and capable builder, mechanic, and pilot. For a newbie to charge out and do such a thing is quite a different matter. Unless you can correspond directly with one who has also done what you wish to do with your particular airplane, can give all necessary data for the change (is willing to share the info), AND who has hundreds of hours of service experience to share, you will be piece-mealing your conversion, and possibly on the advice of several individuals. The bad thing about being a newbie and taking on-line advice from multiple sources is that important/critical integration-level aspects can be missed or simply not realized. I've seen this first-hand on two occasions, one of which was almost fatal.

 

Now I gotta go finish that Hill's Hoist autogyro (gotta start simple, and I don't have an O-320 lying around right now.

 

-Joe Person

EAA Tech Counselor 4418

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[MacGyver]

What is the new max. take off and landing weight Bert recommends, MacGyver? How does flying with increased figures go when making an insurance claim? The Jabiru engine you are mentioning, is that the one made in Australia? That engine is plagued with valve problems. Two Jabiru engines in out club had to have valves done up three times in the last year.

Norm,

 

Before you start usung this and other forums, I highly recommend reading all of the Canard Pusher newsletters as a start. If you did not receive any of them when you purchased your VEZ, you can find them here:

 

http://www.cozybuilders.org/Canard_Pusher/

 

In particular, please read this one:

 

http://www.cozybuilders.org/Canard_Pusher/RAF_inspection.pdf

 

Finally, be cautious on getting advice from those who have never built a VariEze - there is a lot of commonality between the VariEze and her "descendants" (e.g. Long-EZ and Cozy), but a Long-EZ or Cozy builder who has no direct VariEze experience may not know the details about wing attach, MLG attach, etc. that are different on a VariEze.

 

'Bout all I can say.

 

-Joe Person

EAA Tech Counselor 4418

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[very easy]

Who said anything about single seater A closer look at the picture reveals the copilot sleeping while going 200 KTS.

My varieze with a 0-200 engine, two people on board, full fuel would be over weight.

Empty A/c 628 lbs

Full fuel 159

Pilot 187

Pax 187

Total 1161

Add extra weight of bigger engine

My 1977 varieze handbook has gross wight 1050 lbs. Havn't done the calculations, but the plane could be out of c of g. So ad some more ballast in the front which increases the weight further. Anybody see anything wrong with the calculations?

[MacGyver]

Norm,

 

You have a lot of homework to do. Your VEZ's POH, as finalized by the builder and/or as updated by the last owner if W&B changes occurred, should have had a notation for min/max front seat pilot weights. FWIW, Structurally, the VEZ is limited to 255 pounds in the front seat, due to structural limitations of the nose gear strut.

 

Take time with all this stuff mate. Any plans-built homebuilt must be considered a "one-off" airplane, with respect to W&B, handling, flight characteristics, maintenance requirements, etc., etc., etc. No such thing as "safe plug & play" here, unless the builder, and any prior owners, were fastidious about the building, care, and feeding of the airplane, and maintained commensurate records.

 

Again, start by reading and getting to know the evolution of the VEZ by reading the Canard Pushers. Take the time to do a complete examination of the airplane, based on the 25+ years of service experience and associated changes detailed by Rutan Aircraft Factory.

 

In your CP readings, you will find the CP where Burt gave the 1110 pound max T/O weight, with associated requirements. You will also find the reference to the reason behind his max front seat weight limit.

 

As for 628 pounds empty, that is actually very good, from a global perspective of completed and flown VEZs. FWIW, the only time I go full fuel is when solo. Like any airplane, you should only load to meet mission requirements, with whatever reserves you must have.

 

Take your time, do it right, and don't end up like another gent last year, who had a midlife crisis, bought a VEZ (with at least one documented serious deficiency, and several other "by observation" deficiencies), and wadded it up in a ball in the midwest in May, 2008 during an attempted forced landing (coulda killed him, but he got lucky).

 

-Joe Person

EAA Tech Counselor 4418

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[very easy]

MacGyver,

Thanks for the info, esp with the pins. This info is not readily available. The plane did not come with any notation of min or max pilot weights. The figures I gave were those finalized in the c of a inspection for lic. in Australia. A 132 lb pilot with full fuel was plaquared as min. pilot wt. and put the c of g close but not at the rear limit. Max. pilot weight is 220 lbs at 0 fuel and moves the c of g forward to the limit. These calculations are based on information contained in the 1977 handbook and so do not take into consideration "building variances" or updated information. However, I'll look at the newsletters you provided and see what that is all about.

 

 

PS Are you still out there jhicks (origional poster sept.) or did you give up getting a reply?

[jhicks]

Im still here. I have been doing a lot of research, and reading this forum carefully. I am wanting a Long EZ, but been considering a Varieze because of cost. Im 6'2" 230-240lbs. My heart is set on a Long Ez just whether or not I will find what I want for the price i can afford will be the question.

 

Just been reading more than posting. Trying to find all I can. Wish I could find some more in person to see. I have yet to get to sit in one or go up in one. But I know I will make me want one even more.

 

My flying experience isnt like most of you guys that are aeronautical engineers, or airline pilots... But everyone has to start somewhere. Im 19 years old, and have been flying all my life. I got my license last Aug 08. Around 150TT to this day, flying a Club Cherokee 140.

 

I want a Long ez for the performance. Being able to fly to florida, and go FAST, and good cost. Plus I like the looks too. I hate flying something everyone else has. The canards are like exotic sports cars.

 

If anyone is in Ohio/Michigan/Indiana area that has a Long Ez. I would love to come and see it!!!

[MacGyver]

Jhicks,

 

at 230 to 240 pounds, you will have a verrrry snug fit in a stock VariEze (VEZ). My VEZ is one inch wider, primarily to give the rear seater extra shoulder room. The first time I tried on a VEZ back seat, my shoulder bones were "in" the longerons, and not comfortably. I'm 6' and 218 right now - back when I first sat in the back of a VEZ, I was 210 - 215 or so. That was 22 years ago. I've had a 240 pounder in the back of my VEZ, and he was snug, to say the least.

 

The one-inch width increase I designed into my VEZ yielded some bonus width for the front seat.

 

You may wish to make a post regarding your interest to see others' airplanes on the canard-aviators group on Yahoo, and on EZ.org.

 

FWIW, I started "hands-on" with canards when I was 19 (gives me 28 years now, messing with these infernal things...) - I helped a friend build his Long-EZ while I was in college, and after I graduated and ended up at Boeing, my flying needs and budget (I did not wish to borrow any money for an airplane) dictated that the VEZ was my best option. I'm still happy with the decision after all these years.

 

My free advice here (all I ever give in these forums) is to take your time researching, get to look at others' airplanes, get a ride or 2 (this is usually not a problem, overall), and don't make any snap decisions, should you end up in the mode of buying a completed airplane. In fact, I'd suggest that if you settle on a particular design, consider building from scratch. Building it yourself is the best way to get the airplane you want, and the best way to know exactly what is in the airplane, with regard to how well/carefully it is built. There are some fine airplanes that come up for sale, but there also some real dogs, or even downright unsafe ones that also pop up once in a while. Patience, Luke...

 

Joe Person

EAA Tech Counselor 4418

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[jhicks]

Jhicks,

 

at 230 to 240 pounds, you will have a verrrry snug fit in a stock VariEze (VEZ). My VEZ is one inch wider, primarily to give the rear seater extra shoulder room. The first time I tried on a VEZ back seat, my shoulder bones were "in" the longerons, and not comfortably. I'm 6' and 218 right now - back when I first sat in the back of a VEZ, I was 210 - 215 or so. That was 22 years ago. I've had a 240 pounder in the back of my VEZ, and he was snug, to say the least.

 

The one-inch width increase I designed into my VEZ yielded some bonus width for the front seat.

 

You may wish to make a post regarding your interest to see others' airplanes on the canard-aviators group on Yahoo, and on EZ.org.

 

FWIW, I started "hands-on" with canards when I was 19 (gives me 28 years now, messing with these infernal things...) - I helped a friend build his Long-EZ while I was in college, and after I graduated and ended up at Boeing, my flying needs and budget (I did not wish to borrow any money for an airplane) dictated that the VEZ was my best option. I'm still happy with the decision after all these years.

 

My free advice here (all I ever give in these forums) is to take your time researching, get to look at others' airplanes, get a ride or 2 (this is usually not a problem, overall), and don't make any snap decisions, should you end up in the mode of buying a completed airplane. In fact, I'd suggest that if you settle on a particular design, consider building from scratch. Building it yourself is the best way to get the airplane you want, and the best way to know exactly what is in the airplane, with regard to how well/carefully it is built. There are some fine airplanes that come up for sale, but there also some real dogs, or even downright unsafe ones that also pop up once in a while. Patience, Luke...

 

Joe Person

EAA Tech Counselor 4418

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

 

 

Ok thanks for the info. You say you had a 230-240lb guy in the back seat? Were you able to fly still? I keep getting different answers on what you can take pound wise. I mostly fly by myself, But I know I would still like to be able to take someone sometimes.

 

I do need to find Both a Varieze and a Long Ez to sit in, and maybe go up in. They seem really close to the same plane. Just one is supposidly more sensative on the controls, and the other can fly longer distances.

 

I do like the idea of a 0-320 on a varieze at 200kts... I cant comprehend what power is like on a varieze with a 0-200. (that 100hp???)

 

thanks for the info!

[MacGyver]

Jamie,

 

Yes, that was a passenger - with 7 gallons of fuel, the Eze was at around 1120 pounds. That was a local flight, not cross-country. My Eze back seat is comfortable up to around 200 pounders. Above that, and above 6 feet tall, the back seat starts to get what I consider snug.

 

My placarded max weight for my Eze is 1200 pounds. -1.2/+3.8 Gs at that weight. I built mine, and I know exactly the condition of all primary structure, including sparcap/wing fitting interface, and, I was able to quantify that weight analytically, not just from a random perspective. Matter-of-fact, when I described my deviation from the per-plans steps to building up the sparcap/wing fitting interfaces face-to-face with Burt Rutan 10+ years ago, he remarked that in retrospect my approach was what he should have specified in the plans, to best-ensure optimum structural performance and minimization of potential for error.

 

For one just starting out, I'd not recommend an O-320 in a VariEze. If you like very nice cruise speeds, and good overall performance/economy, a lightweight O-200 (100 hp) Eze is hard to beat.

 

At 16,500, I can get 150 - 155 knots true out of mine (electronic ignition on one bank of plugs), burning 3.3 gph.

 

You need to try both a VariEze and a Long-EZ on for size first. I had the opportunity to do both airplanes (co-built a Long-EZ, and flew both front and back seat in same, and a back seat ride in a VariEze) before I committed to going the VariEze route.

 

I cannot stress how important having a light overall airplane is, if going the VariEze route.

 

-Joe Person

VariEze N79JN

Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[longez360]

617lbs empty if I recall correctly

150-155KTAS at 16,500, burning 3.3 gph. . . Sheesh... I WISH!!

 

That is the qunitessential VariEze and having seen it and flown along side it many times, I can say without reservation that it is one of the nicest ever built. It is exactly how I'd hope to build a VariEze and like Joe says it would be the O-200. A Jab would be my alternate also.

 

We flew to Havre Montana in formation (one of the best trips I've ever done), and his machine did what mine did at a fraction of the cost.

 

Keep it light and simple, Jamie. The 320 is the wrong engine for this aeroplane. Klaus and Gary Hertzler have proved it time and time again.

[longezdave]

They seem really close to the same plane. Just one is supposidly more sensative on the controls, and the other can fly longer distances.

The 40% more wing area of the Long EZ makes a pretty big difference.

[Edge 513]

I like Bill's leg fairings. Very nice.

Now about wheelpantz. Does anybody know if the Featherlight wheelpants are much slower than Klaus' pressure recovery pants?

Sorry to hijack a bit.

 

Search the forum back posts. Marc, as I recall, brought up some very good points about many Vari's flying over designer gross in the past.

[very easy]

At 185 pounds, the back seat of my varieze is snug-240 pounds would make a can of sardines look like wide open spaces. Losing weight to move the c of g back a bit and get fit. For those sitting on the edge of their seat, checked all fuel flows, vents etc and all ok. Will buy an aviation timing light and check timing. How can you check if the mags are giving full spark? Pulled out a plug and it was black and slightly sooty.