Rotary Replacement

[Kupo Kupo]

Hi everyone,

 

My name is Vlad and I'm looking into making a purpose built aviation rotary for the LSA/experimental market. I wanted to ask the nice people on this forum to see what kind of interest everyone would have to see if I should continue with the project. Anyway, here are the specs thus far:

 

-Twin rotor

-Side port intake & exhaust

-Aluminum rotor housing and side plates

-Iron rotor "sleeves"

-Liquid cooled

-Direct driven

-Uses as many oem Mazda parts as possible (oil pan, water pump, oil pump, etc.)

-Custom rear plate for dynafocal or conical mounts

-Custom front plate to fit starter

 

The plan is for multiple engines in the 80-160hp range to satisfy most builders. Engine weight is planed to be about 1.4lbs/hp. I'm planing to have the engine run 100% rated power at 2700rpm and 75% rated power at 2400rpm. These figures would vary depending on the length of the intake manifold and if any porting was done over factory but you get the general idea. The motor would be sold as either a build it yourself kit or possible package. The build it yourself kit would include the "block" and internals and you would supply all the Mazda oem parts and custom intake and exhaust along with everything involving the fuel injection system (fuel injectors, FPR, lines, ecu.) The possible package would be everything you would need to install the damn thing.

 

Just as a note, none of this is written in stone, I just wanted to see what interest would be in such a product and comments, recommendations, etc. from the fellow forum members.

[Kupo Kupo]

Man, 40 views and no comments. I'm not sure whether I should take this as my idea is perfect and everyone loves it or no one is interested enough to respond? It's okay to speak out guys and girls, I don't bite (hard.)

[Marc Zeitlin]

Man, 40 views and no comments. I'm not sure whether I should take this as my idea is perfect and everyone loves it or no one is interested enough to respond? It's okay to speak out guys and girls, I don't bite (hard.)

You want feedback?

 

The best predictor of future performance is past performance. Reviewing the experiences of others with similar goals leads me to believe that you will spend 10 - 15 years developing said motor, will spend 5 times as much money doing so as you could ever imagine in your worst nightmare, will end up pricing it way out of the range of any LSA/experimental buyers, and will not get the performance for which you aim. You will most likely go broke doing all of this.

 

If you're asking this question here (where the answer to you question would be meaningless in any case), it's also clear that you have no business model, much less an understanding of the technical issues involved.

 

Present a business plan and a real technical plan, and then it'll be worth responding to the question.

 

Other than that, it sounds like a good idea - go for it.

[Neverquit]

Other than that, it sounds like a good idea - go for it.

 

Still waiting for the diesel to evolve.

 

Speaking of LSA, anyone notice the most popular LSA aircraft in the States are not built in the States? Leaving all the history of failures aside, how come non-US countries continue to succeed in small startups like this?

[Kupo Kupo]

You want feedback?

 

If you're asking this question here (where the answer to you question would be meaningless in any case), it's also clear that you have no business model, much less an understanding of the technical issues involved.

 

Present a business plan and a real technical plan, and then it'll be worth responding to the question.

Well, thanks for the cheerful response, good to see support for new businesses and ideas. I'm a bit confused to say the least, when producers don't care about the opinions and concerns of their buyers, the buyers complain, when the opportunity to speak up about what you would like comes up, the buyers blow it off anyway.

 

Let me see if I can clarify. Of the suggested specs I have listed above, what would you like and what do you want to change.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Well, thanks for the cheerful response...

If you ask for opinions, you shouldn't really complain when you get one.

 

good to see support for new businesses and ideas.

There was no business proposed - just some design specific ideas without requirements or specifications. The ideas are not new - there are at least 3 or 4 other folks out there doing almost exactly what you propose (and not particularly succeeding).

 

I'm a bit confused to say the least, when producers don't care about the opinions and concerns of their buyers, the buyers complain, when the opportunity to speak up about what you would like comes up, the buyers blow it off anyway.

Most of the folks here won't need a motor for 3 - 7 years, and you won't have one until well after that anyway. No local feedback that you get will be useful either to them or to you.

 

Make believe that you're making a pitch to venture capitalists - you've got 15 minutes of my time, and I've got $15M that you want from me. Why should I give it to you? The list of design characteristics you listed above tells me absolutely nothing about the business, the market needs, the solution you're proposing, or why I should believe in you.

 

Let me see if I can clarify. Of the suggested specs I have listed above...

Those aren't specs - they're design characteristics.

 

what would you like and what do you want to change.

I couldn't care less. Once a motor exists, I'll measure it against my requirements.

 

For a COZY MKIV, I want a 180 - 220 HP motor that weighs 350 lb dry, has liquid cooling, is as reliable as a Toyota/Honda/Subaru motor, puts out that HP at 2700 RPM (with or without PSRU - don't care, as long as you meet the weight/reliability requirements), needs a tuneup once/year, runs on diesel/Jet A, is normalized for 75% power up to 18K ft, has a BSFC below 0.35 lb/hp/hr and costs $10K.

 

Now you've got a set of requirements. Come up with some specifications - leave the design for later.

[Edge 513]

Kupo.

Dont take the respondent posts as flippant acidity..it is kind of more like a REALITY check. While a few here are hoping to use them, the Mazda rotary is not receiving rave reviews in the canard world as far as USERS with successful installations...[only one I know of]so a startup company/product rotary isnt going to be met with Cheshire grins and backslapping here in our application. The Ross redrives were kind of in the niche you are describing...out there on the fringe application, but limping along. All it took was a change in ownership/overseership and the product went from fair to crap. Lots of guys share there woes of the past here about buying things that were supposed to be the catsazz and unhappily turned out to be just be a warmfart. Good money wasted. Marc may sound harsh..but you did ask for opnion from our group and he pretty much nailed my thoughts, based on how many rotarys are actually flying in canard configurations. I dont see smaller LSA versions as any different

Sorry...and good luck. =/

Just my 2 cents

[Marc Zeitlin]

... weighs 350 lb dry...

Sorry - that should have read 250 lb. dry. Brainfart.

[Kupo Kupo]

Kupo.

Dont take the respondent posts as flippant acidity..it is kind of more like a REALITY check. While a few here are hoping to use them, the Mazda rotary is not receiving rave reviews in the canard world as far as USERS with successful installations...[only one I know of]so a startup company/product rotary isnt going to be met with Cheshire grins and backslapping here in our application. The Ross redrives were kind of in the niche you are describing...out there on the fringe application, but limping along. All it took was a change in ownership/overseership and the product went from fair to crap. Lots of guys share there woes of the past here about buying things that were supposed to be the catsazz and unhappily turned out to be just be a warmfart. Good money wasted. Marc may sound harsh..but you did ask for opnion from our group and he pretty much nailed my thoughts, based on how many rotarys are actually flying in canard configurations. I dont see smaller LSA versions as any different

Sorry...and good luck. =/

Just my 2 cents

Thanks, that's all I needed to know. Have a good one.

[Kupo Kupo]

For a COZY MKIV, I want a 180 - 220 HP motor that weighs 350 lb dry, has liquid cooling, is as reliable as a Toyota/Honda/Subaru motor, puts out that HP at 2700 RPM (with or without PSRU - don't care, as long as you meet the weight/reliability requirements), needs a tuneup once/year, runs on diesel/Jet A, is normalized for 75% power up to 18K ft, has a BSFC below 0.35 lb/hp/hr and costs $10K.

 

That's really what I was looking for, the rest of the commentary just sounds like a rant from an upset old man. That wasn't too hard was it? Thanks for the insight in any case.

[Cozy1200]

...the rest of the commentary just sounds like a rant from an upset old man.

Marc, please don't read the following....

 

 

Don't take anything that Marc says personal, that's not his intent. Early on he pissed me off plenty cause I thought he was attacking me or the idea. Most of the time he's raising questions or concerns that should be answered. Satisfy his concerns and I've seen him give a nod of possibility. Marc is a very skilled, and knowledgeable engineer, and if I had to guess, a good businessman to boot.

[Edge 513]

... the rest of the commentary just sounds like a rant from an upset old man. That wasn't too hard was it? Thanks for the insight in any case.

Theres a guy named dust who runs another canard forum that you might find agreeable to your labeling of Marc. He's a wealth of interesting information as an alternative to our Marc here. Go see if his brandy is more to your liking. I'd rather the spicy straight shooter, than the alternative .

[TMann]

That's really what I was looking for, the rest of the commentary just sounds like a rant from an upset old man. That wasn't too hard was it? Thanks for the insight in any case.

You had better find a new head for your PR department. You are really p!ss!ng off the wrong people ....... and you've only made 5 posts.

 

Ladies and gentlemen ...... we have a new record!

[Kupo Kupo]

You had better find a new head for your PR department. You are really p!ss!ng off the wrong people ....... and you've only made 5 posts.

 

Ladies and gentlemen ...... we have a new record!

Come now, I'm sure Marc has thicker skin then that. Besides, I'm just calling it how I see it. If you find that rude, so be it, your now officially the really thin skin of Marc.

 

Look, I'll be the 2nd to say that Marc seems like (and likely is) a very knowledgeable person. It's just that I asked one thing and got a load of something else.

[Kupo Kupo]

Theres a guy named dust who runs another canard forum that you might find agreeable to your labeling of Marc. He's a wealth of interesting information as an alternative to our Marc here. Go see if his brandy is more to your liking. I'd rather the spicy straight shooter, than the alternative .

Thanks for the insight, I'll look into it.

[Lynn Erickson]

Come now, I'm sure Marc has thicker skin then that. Besides, I'm just calling it how I see it. If you find that rude, so be it, your now officially the really thin skin of Marc.

 

Look, I'll be the 2nd to say that Marc seems like (and likely is) a very knowledgeable person. It's just that I asked one thing and got a load of something else.

The load of something you got is good sound advice. that is what you asked for isn't it.

[Kupo Kupo]

The load of something you got is good sound advice. that is what you asked for isn't it.

I recieved good advice, don't get me wrong. It's just that I recieved alot of IMHO irrelevent comments.

 

So no one misunderstand what I'm say, let me show an example.

 

Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin

For a COZY MKIV, I want a 180 - 220 HP motor that weighs 350 lb dry, has liquid cooling, is as reliable as a Toyota/Honda/Subaru motor, puts out that HP at 2700 RPM (with or without PSRU - don't care, as long as you meet the weight/reliability requirements), needs a tuneup once/year, runs on diesel/Jet A, is normalized for 75% power up to 18K ft, has a BSFC below 0.35 lb/hp/hr and costs $10K.

This is all that good stuff I was looking for. Very concise and detailed. Beautiful is the perfect word to describe this.

 

Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin

If you ask for opinions, you shouldn't really complain when you get one. There was no business proposed - just some design specific ideas without requirements or specifications. The ideas are not new - there are at least 3 or 4 other folks out there doing almost exactly what you propose (and not particularly succeeding). Make believe that you're making a pitch to venture capitalists - you've got 15 minutes of my time, and I've got $15M that you want from me. Why should I give it to you? The list of design characteristics you listed above tells me absolutely nothing about the business, the market needs, the solution you're proposing, or why I should believe in you.

This on the other hand is the "stuff" that was never really called for, atleast not by me. I never asked to have my business plan reviewed, just simply for suggestions as to what LSA/experimental aviators would like to see in a motor.

[Edge 513]

You really would appreciate that other forum I was talking about. Give dust a try. Be careful who you listen to out there, and who you frag...its all not as it seems.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Come now, I'm sure Marc has thicker skin then that.

You betcha. Nothing said on this (or any other forum) could possibly piss me off. And while I might be getting old, I'm hardly upset.

 

Besides, I'm just calling it how I see it.

That's how moogles, do, no? Although you seem to have a substantially larger vocabulary than most.

 

... It's just that I asked one thing and got a load of something else.

The magic of the internet. You cannot control what other people do, even in response to a question that you believe to be specific and direct. Sort of like the rest of life, too.

[Orinoco]

Vlad,

 

You should understand that a forum like this gets a lot of posts from people who want to hang a 300 pound engine on the front of a Cozy with little or no understanding that there might be a weight and balance consideration or widen the fuselage by 18 inches with no thought of the potential increased risk of deep stall. For the most part they are well intentioned dreamers who will never do a layup.

 

In your initial post you mentioned ratary engine and direct drive as coexisting characteristics of the same engine. I'm not an engineer but I've done lots of research on the rotary and know enough to say that you either don't know anything about the engine or you've made a breakthrough that no one else knows about.

 

The fact that your on this forum asking strangers for their dream list of engine characteristics tends to indicate that your not a serious player. But, when you have your 200 pound 200 horspower direct drive rotary ready sell, with a few thousand hours of flight time, I'll take one!

 

Mike

[k1234]

You say you're a student. Are you seriously entertaining designing a motor, or is this part of some class exercise to find out what sort of motor you should build if you were building one for real?

 

If the former, then I'm personally with Mark 100% of the way. If the latter, then I think people might be more willing to offer help if you simply came out and said so. Presumably you have access to an academic library - go look up market-research techniques. You probably can get some valid qualitative information out of asking questions on the internet - but there are good and bad ways of going about it.

 

I don't know much about it myself, but I used to live with someone who studied these things. I learned to appreciate that it's not all nonsense.

 

Lastly, even a non-engineer such as myself can see that half the innovations proposed on this forum would kill someone if they were taken to completion. In serious fields like engineering or medicine, we need straight talkers like Marc. Learn to welcome negative feedback and take it with good grace, even if you don't agree with it.

[JCPJCP]

Look at http://www.lmlkorea.com and http://www.wankelsupertec.de to see one alternative to a Mazda based design.

 

Still years away from production, to say the least.

 

Both web sites appear to be carefully crafted to soley attract interest of venture capitalists.

 

Also note that they are trying to sell design to any and every application, with aviation way down on the list !

 

John

[TMann]

...... or just go to www.Mistral-Engines.com

 

What needs to happen is this:

Build it.

Fly it ......... then ask who would be interested.

 

It's aviation. No utested prototypes please.

[k1234]

You say you're a student.

Sorry, I just read over the thread again and I don't know where I got that from.

[Lynn Erickson]

...... or just go to www.Mistral-Engines.com

 

What needs to happen is this:

Build it.

Fly it ......... then ask who would be interested.

 

It's aviation. No utested prototypes please.

Ya, do as TMann says, and do as he is doing. build an untested prototype of the long eze with untested landing gear and powered by an untested rotary engine. would you fly it ? he will?