Jump to content

OpenEZ Plans update, pdf


Aiman

Recommended Posts

Hey everyone,

 

I know that I have been MIA for some time, as my life has taken some very interesting turns. I now live in Texas (yay year round build weather!) and work for a major hosting company. I haven't had the time to move forward as fast as I would have liked on the build plans re-work. So, here I am to give you an update, and to ask for your help. I don't think that I will be able to fully re-factor the plans by myself, it is just too large of a project.

 

Here is where I am at (a PDF output of the file that I am working on):

http://www.aimana.com/openez/OpenEZ.pdf

 

Here is what I need help with:

-Moving forward with the OCR conversion.

-Images & Pictures need to be redone

-Importantly, the CP Newsletter changes all need to be added in to the new plans.

-Most importantly: Bill of parts & Materials needs to be COMPLETELY re-factored.

 

Here is what you need:

ScanSoft OmniPage 16 (I have 5 licensed copies, 4 that are unused, if you are serious about helping out with the OCR, I will give you one of my copies and walk you through using it)

Microsoft Word 2003 or newer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 88
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Here is where I am at (a PDF output of the file that I am working on):

http://www.aimana.com/openez/OpenEZ.pdf

Let me make this as clear as I possibly can, as someone who has access to Burt Rutan on an as-needed basis.

 

This is a clear instance of copyright infringment. It is one thing to take hand-drawn drawing templates and re-draw them using CAD - the shapes cannot be copyrighted, and there's a reasonable argument to be made that there's no copyright infringement going on with the template distribution under the "Open-EZ" effort.

 

However, merely taking existing written words and entering them into a computer, whether through manual typing or through OCR, and replacing the words "Long-EZ" with "Open-EZ" (while claiming, amazingly enough, that the "Open-EZ" was originally Burt Rutan's design, and keeping all of the existing plans drawings intact) does not get around copyright laws. TERF currently has the only rights from RAF to distribute Long-EZ plans, and you are CLEARLY violating these copyrights and distribution rights by doing what you are.

 

I am in no position to issue a "cease and desist" request, but have no doubt that if this effort continues in this vein that I will ensure that the people who have an interest in this matter (Burt/RAF and TERF) will be notified of the infringement occurring.

 

If you rewrote the plans in your own words and redrew the drawings, then the infringement would be arguable. This is most certainly not. And Jon, don't even think of bringing up "Fair Use" in the context of direct copying of a complete book and redistributing it without cost, taking revenue away from TERF who sells the plans under license.

 

I'm disgusted. You want the plans? Buy them from TERF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

shocking. I'm truly stunned. I recall making a post about this a while ago and having nothing but support from people here, yourself included. I didnt even get into the embedded multimedia, completely re-doing the images/drawings, etc. Moot point now I guess.

 

Ok, done. Project ended. Files removed. Ciao.

 

fyi, your tone was excessively rude as well.

 

And, I'll thank you to throw away any files you may have downloaded from my private website. We'll call it even.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

shocking. I'm truly stunned. I recall making a post about this a while ago and having nothing but support from people here, yourself included.

Maybe you could point me to a post with my support for your position - I couldn't find it. What other people support is of no concern to me.

 

Interestingly enough, you stated yourself, on 2/6/2008, with respect to this issue:

 

"Hopefully I wasn't misunderstood. I in no way want the plans or other documents from the terf cd included, all the things I listed were freely available on the web for download."

 

Apparently you changed your mind.

 

fyi, your tone was excessively rude as well.

I don't find it surprising that I don't see what was rude about what I said, but just how much rudeness would not be excessive when pointing out extra-legal behavior?

 

And, I'll thank you to throw away any files you may have downloaded from my private website. We'll call it even.

I don't have a clue what/where your website is (the link from your personal information doesn't point to anything useful), or what files you think I've downloaded from it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

-sigh-

 

Your rude request along with veiled threats of legal action:

 

I am in no position to issue a "cease and desist" request, but have no doubt that if this effort continues in this vein that I will ensure that the people who have an interest in this matter (Burt/RAF and TERF) will be notified of the infringement occurring.

Me, saying 'ok, i concede, and will cease working on this project immediately': Which I made in my second post in this thread, no arguments!

 

Ok, done. Project ended. Files removed. Ciao.

This next part is highlighted to make sure you don't miss it.

In your following post you don't even acknowledge that I accepted your request to cease, and instead you chose to nit-pick apart every OTHER thing that I said.

 

Being a senior engineering level person in my career (as I believe you are), I realize how easy it is to simply pick to pieces almost anything anyone says or does. Let's call it a 'disadvantage' of being an intelligent and well educated human being.. However, I also have the maturity to recognize when someone concedes defeat, and to let the issue drop. Those are the actions of a mature, well educated, and classy adult.

 

Now.. let me step off my mature/intelligent/classy soapbox and speak on a level that you might understand:

 

Based on the above statements of fact, I can with absolute certainty say that you are a condescending, selectively illiterate azzhole who doesn't deserve to have the things that you do, or your status in life and work. I don't care if you have a hotline to the most expensive hooker on earth, that doesn't give you the right to talk to people the way that you do. Make your points, but show some respect to the people you talk to. Remember, you have NO idea who I am, or of what I am capable. I do know this though: Someone needs to put your ass in check. Quickly.

 

Gentle readers: I realize that I came over the top of MZ a bit hard, however, I just don't think my points were getting across to him the 'kind and gentle' way. My sincere apologies to you all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating that you do not choose to support your claims in your first response.

 

Now.. let me step off my mature/intelligent/classy soapbox and speak on a level that you might understand:

Heh. Mightly low soapbox - are you sure that you aren't stepping up?

 

Based on the above statements of fact, I can with absolute certainty say that you are a condescending, selectively illiterate azzhole who doesn't deserve to have the things that you do, or your status in life and work.

Condescending - at times. Illiterate? Hardly. As*hole? Yeah, sometimes. Deserve? I don't use that word. I've earned what I've got (along with being lucky) - neither I, nor anyone else, "deserves" anything.

 

I don't care if you have a hotline to the most expensive hooker on earth, that doesn't give you the right to talk to people the way that you do.

I think you're thinking of Elliot Spitzer.

 

Maybe you need to grow a thicker skin - you post to the forum, make a claim that you're mugging someone, and then call the person that says that they're going to get the police if you don't stop rude. Then you give them a hard time because they didn't pat you on the back and say "good boy" when you threw the purse down on the ground and ran away.

 

Make your points, but show some respect to the people you talk to.

Respect is earned - it is not a right. I start out respecting people, but when they do something disrespectful, well...

 

Remember, you have NO idea who I am, or of what I am capable.

Actually, having met you at a fly-in and given your friend a ride in my plane, I actually do have a pretty good idea of who you are. Unless you're batman, I also have a pretty good idea of what you're capable of, too. Pretty much the same as everyone else on the planet.

 

I do know this though: Someone needs to put your ass in check. Quickly.

What's that supposed to mean? I have been threatened by far more capable people than you. If you don't like to read what I write, it's pretty simple to put me on your "Ignore list". Just go to the "User CP", up at the top left of the forum control panel menu, click on "Buddy/Ignore List", and then put my name in the "Ignore" column. Voila - you'll never see my postings again, and your adrenaline and stress levels will be far lower. Get a grip.

 

Gentle readers: I realize that I came over the top of MZ a bit hard, however, I just don't think my points were getting across to him the 'kind and gentle' way. My sincere apologies to you all.

Maybe those gentle readers would be interested in having you respond to the questions I asked in my second posting, regarding my supposed support for your activities and which files I might have downloaded from a website that I can't find?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe those gentle readers would be interested in having you respond to the questions I asked in my second posting, regarding my supposed support for your activities and which files I might have downloaded from a website that I can't find?

I'll respond to your questions at approximately the same time (most likely a few minutes after) you acknowledge that I acquiesced immediately to your request to put my project on ice. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll respond to your questions at approximately the same time (most likely a few minutes after) you acknowledge that I acquiesced immediately to your request to put my project on ice. :)

Hereby acknowledged.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr Aiman from location: none. Not sure where that planet is located but give me some time, it might come to me. Being one of those gentle readers I thought I needed to respond. Marc Zetlin has given more free advice and answered more aernautical questions on this forum and other forums than anyone I know. Something he is not required to do. He does not have to stand on a soap box like you as he answers all questions with responsible and accurate answers. He does this for the safety of experimental aircraft and trying to keep other builders from making any foolish mistakes or errors in their build. If you have some positive or constructive information to add to the forum or a subject, go for it, otherwise go back to planet None.

 

Jack Morrison

E Racer Extreme

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To Aiman's defense, he wasn't trying to do any evil, only update some old plans with modern word processing technology and drawings... If it's copyright infringement it's copyright infringement, and I believe he meant no ill will, and he has subsequently ceased the forward progress he's been making... I think everyone's coming down hard on eachother here... If it really is infringement (I'm not a lawyer) then the right thing was already done. I for one am sad this did not come to fruition, the plans could use some updating and tweaks, but I understand we're dealing with a business' property and we have to abide by the proper laws. I own the TERF CD and from what I've seen some of the old newsletters are hard to read, and the images are scanned in to PDF so I can see why some one would want to do this. Personally I think this show was something that should have been taken up off-line by private message... Let's bring this back to civil tones. As I see it Aiman tried to contribute in a big way and he had a good idea to modernize the plans.

 

-Chris

Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr Aiman from location: none. Not sure where that planet is located but give me some time, it might come to me. Being one of those gentle readers I thought I needed to respond. Marc Zetlin has given more free advice and answered more aernautical questions on this forum and other forums than anyone I know. Something he is not required to do. He does not have to stand on a soap box like you as he answers all questions with responsible and accurate answers. He does this for the safety of experimental aircraft and trying to keep other builders from making any foolish mistakes or errors in their build. If you have some positive or constructive information to add to the forum or a subject, go for it, otherwise go back to planet None.

 

Jack Morrison

E Racer Extreme

I am not sure what you mean by planet None. ???

 

Anyhow I agree that Marc's response was perhaps a little more hostile than necessary. Now I have come to see, over the last few days that this is his style of communicating. However, that being said, I do see that he has provided perhaps a reality check, that we should make sure that this is all above board and legal.

 

I do not think that any one here is advocating steeling another's intellectual property, rather that the effort is put forth in improving upon the documentation available for everyones benefit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When someone writes here and makes me wonder whether the profanity filters could use improvement I get annoyed. That's a topic of distraction, so if we can all check ourselves in this area we'll have more fun.

 

As I see it Aiman tried to contribute in a big way and he had a good idea to modernize the plans.

I do not think that any one here is advocating steeling another's intellectual property, rather that the effort is put forth in improving upon the documentation available for everyones benefit.

Having IM'd with Aiman over the years, that's my perspective as well. Not a hint about profiting from the endeavor, which I understood as Aiman sincerely wanting to publish new and improved plans.

 

I do see that he has provided perhaps a reality check, that we should make sure that this is all above board and legal.

True. Scanning Long-EZ plans and going direct to PDF or print without making substantial improvements while TERF is selling the same is quite likely to catch some attention to stop the project. I have not seen the latest PDFs by Aiman, so I cannot comment.

 

How is this different from Saberwalt, a moderator of the C-A list, selling copies of the TERF CD on Ebay for "Beer Money", per a recent post there.

My understanding is that he has a bulk deal from TERF and is simply reselling them (not copying, etc.).

 

And Jon, don't even think of bringing up "Fair Use" in the context of direct copying of a complete book and redistributing it without cost, taking revenue away from TERF who sells the plans under license.

Thanks for the preemptive strike Marc, but that's been my position all along with regard to "Fair Use" -- take nothing away from legally authorized/licensed vendors.

 

Jon, we really need a gas can emoticon :D

Hah! Maybe an emoticon refresh is in order... but for the time being we have this: :grouphug:

Jon Matcho :busy:
Builder & Canard Zone Admin
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Resume building a Cozy Mark IV

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So finally, where are we with this project?

 

We can redo the templates, but we can't redo the construction manual...

So to no infringe TERF's copyright on the manual (i will be surprised if they do anything to rewrite them, or let us do so) what you are going to be using to build your EZ is the terf's manual.

But per the license agreement you are not allowed to build per these manuals, as this is for educational purpose only... so basically unless someone is going to start this manual over again (i would also be surprised that this would happen) Open-EZ is dead, and the long-EZ (RAF being dead) is only living on the remaining of the existing 20 years old plans. Berkut is dead also. So 2 seats canard is something of history...

 

Am I wright?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe you could point me to a post with my support for your position - I couldn't find it. What other people support is of no concern to me.

I couldn't find one either doing a quick search through my own posts on this forum, but my memory is better than average, and I recall discussing this subject with you at some time. It may not have been on a web forum or email list.

I don't find it surprising that I don't see what was rude about what I said, but just how much rudeness would not be excessive when pointing out extra-legal behavior?

Most people, myself included, rarely recognize when they are being rude, especially online. I'll admit, I went over the top of you in one of my posts, but I needed to make a point. Keep in mind, I would say any of this stuff directly to your face as well.

 

I didn't mention this in my original post, but I might have been willing to sell (or if i was really feeling generous, giving back) my work to TERF so that they could include the updated, neatly PDF'd documents on another revision of their CD's. In fact, I was -seriously- considering that. Even if they didn't want to re-master their CD-ROM, they could have put in a simple paper insert or emailed update directing you to a download site where you could get the file if you wanted. Isn't technology wonderful like that?

 

As for your tone, again, I recognize, and am extremely grateful for your vast contributions to the aviation community, and that you have Burt Rutan's ear (I wish I could have that). However, it does not give you carte blanche to speak to people any way you choose. Your contributions to the community will be clouded by your behaviour (in fact, based on the multiple emails of thanks that I got for going toe-to-toe with you, I'd say that has already happened.).

I don't have a clue what/where your website is (the link from your personal information doesn't point to anything useful), or what files you think I've downloaded from it.

Yeah, my old website which was listed in my personal information here... unfortunately the .net domain lapsed, and some cybersquatter decided to purchase the name out from under me. The new and updated site is at .com. If you carefully looked at the URL in my original post in this thread, you would have noticed that. I'm surprised you didn't see that glaring difference, being as observant as you purport yourself to be (remember my comment way back about selective illiteracy?). As for what files you may or may not have downloaded... there are things called webserver logs (located on my own server at /var/log/httpd/access.log) that can without question tell me exactly what was accessed on my server and by whom. Unfortunately, doing that would expose your IP address to the world, violating your privacy, so, I'll keep those to myself.

 

Do you really expect the intelligent people on this forum to believe that you didn't click the link in my original post? Your would never have replied to this thread with such conviction had you not have seen the PDF file. ;) In case you missed it, by some intergalactic miracle, here it is again (obviously this link doesn't work now):

Here is where I am at (a PDF output of the file that I am working on):

http://www.aimana.com/openez/OpenEZ.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

copyrights... I'll point out that I am not a lawyer, I am an IT professional who, due to activity in the OpenSource movement, learned more about patents and other forms of intellectual property than he ever wanted. Take the following with a salt-lick.

 

I've been chewing on this overnight. When I get down to it, I don't think the Long-EZ plans actually are copyrightable. Ideas and process are not copyrightable, only expressions are. So chapter 1 is clearly copyrightable (its mostly a description of the beauty etc of the plane) but chapter 2 (a bill of materials) is not. 3 is probably copyrightable. 4 onwards are a recipe more than anything.

 

(I do think the templates are copyrightable, though. So really, we've got the conversation bass-ackwards.)

 

However, I also think the argument is moot. Open-EZ'ers need the support of the community to succeed, and if the pilars of the community think that the Open-EZ'ers are thiefs etc, no matter what the legal arguments might be, then Open-EZ will fail. Pissing off Marc is a bad way to start.

 

 

Vortal, we can redo the manual. Its a process question:

1) if we try to just update the plans a little, we'll run into the copyright argument, which will never end until it goes to court.

2) We can write it, in our own words, step by step.

3) someone could video tape the entire constuction and release a video-manual. (I'm thinking about doing this. Chapter 3, at the least, on youtube would kick ass, IMHO)

4) We could explore ways to preserve the copyright. Call TERF and work with them. Or maybe call aircraft&spruce. They have the rights to the cozy plans. we could, with their co-operation, make a cozy mk 0.5 or something like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But per the license agreement you are not allowed to build per these manuals, as this is for educational purpose only...

The website says:

 

"These documents are for educational & entertainment purposes."

 

It does not say that by purchasing the CD you are enjoined from building an aircraft. Since one of the purposes of building an experimental amateur built aircraft is education, and since you purchased the CD legally, it's hard to see what rule/law/contract you'd be violating by building an airplane while referencing the documentation.

 

... the long-EZ (RAF being dead) is only living on the remaining of the existing 20 years old plans. Berkut is dead also. So 2 seats canard is something of history...

 

Am I wright?

Don't think so. Use the TERF CD or a set of plans bought secondhand (available from other builders, EBAY, or elsewhere). With respect to unreadable CP's, all the CP's are available in highly readable PDF format on my website. The CP's are NOT covered by any copyright, since they say on them that everyone is ENCOURAGED to redistribute them. The plans say no such thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...we can't redo the construction manual...

That's not true. If one had the time and energy to "substantially" write instructions to produce something that was 100% a clone of the Long-EZ, that would be legal.

 

(I do think the templates are copyrightable, though. So really, we've got the conversation bass-ackwards.)

Whether or not they're copyrightable is not the premise for making them available. Check out "Fair Use" in the US copyright law for the legal justification.

 

Regardless, anyone can sue anyone for any reason. The case may not last long, but even the perceived threat of a lawsuit is enough to stifle productivity, creativity, passion, etc., and send people running for cover when they were actually 100% in the right.

Jon Matcho :busy:
Builder & Canard Zone Admin
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Resume building a Cozy Mark IV

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The website says:

 

"These documents are for educational & entertainment purposes."

 

It does not say that by purchasing the CD you are enjoined from building an aircraft. Since one of the purposes of building an experimental amateur built aircraft is education, and since you purchased the CD legally, it's hard to see what rule/law/contract you'd be violating by building an airplane while referencing the documentation.

 

If you read the first page of the first cd of the TERF package :

The documents found within this product are for entertainment purpose only. this package is NOT A LICENSE to build aircraft.

 

what do you understand in that sentence? i cant see "educational purpose"...

 

Don't think so. Use the TERF CD or a set of plans bought secondhand (available from other builders, EBAY, or elsewhere)

And secondhand plans ARE existing 20 (actually 30) years old paper drawings

nothing new/updated in there.

 

In any cases, if you guys decide to go forward with this project, i will be glad to be part of it, and help you as much as i can, but for now this project is stalled (temporary) unless we define what are the things to do (new building manual, incorporated CPs updated templates and drawings...).

We need a real structure like in those open source project you open source developers are aware of, to-do and advancement status and start getting the job done.

 

that's my vision of the story, people may or may not agree, but the job wont get done if we all argue for ages about any single issue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I couldn't find one either doing a quick search through my own posts on this forum, but my memory is better than average, and I recall discussing this subject with you at some time. It may not have been on a web forum or email list.

Maybe your memory isn't quite as "above average" as you remember it being.

 

Keep in mind, I would say any of this stuff directly to your face as well.

So?

 

... I might have been willing to sell (or if i was really feeling generous, giving back) my work to TERF ...

Burt's email is readily available, as is the TERF contact information. Prior to putting in substantial effort in copying/redistributing copyrighted information, a prudent course of action would have been to contact one or both of these entities and see if they would be interested in using your efforts in a legal fashion.

 

...in fact, based on the multiple emails of thanks that I got for going toe-to-toe with you, I'd say that has already happened.

High Five! You smacked me down hard, and I'm feeling the pain.

 

Like I said, anyone who's not interested in reading what I write is welcome to just ignore it or put me on the Ignore list so they never see it. No skin off my teeth.

 

...Long response to a useless discussion of caching elided...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this package is NOT A LICENSE to build aircraft.

is not a prohibition from doing so. The ONLY thing a license from RAF EVER got anyone was official support from the factory. So this isn't a license - BFD.

 

And secondhand plans ARE existing 20 (actually 30) years old paper drawings nothing new/updated in there.

So? 2000 aircraft have been built from those plans. You don't think a few more could be? Have people become substantially stupider, so they can't understand them anymore unless they're provided on a computer in PDF format?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vortal, we can redo the manual. Its a process question:

1) if we try to just update the plans a little, we'll run into the copyright argument, which will never end until it goes to court.

2) We can write it, in our own words, step by step.

3) someone could video tape the entire constuction and release a video-manual. (I'm thinking about doing this. Chapter 3, at the least, on youtube would kick ass, IMHO)

4) We could explore ways to preserve the copyright. Call TERF and work with them. Or maybe call aircraft&spruce. They have the rights to the cozy plans. we could, with their co-operation, make a cozy mk 0.5 or something like that.

I think that all of these are excellent ideas. THe only issue is that producing a DVD would take years, and most builders choose to modify the plans in some way or another. We could do it by chapter, however, with various builders. Heck, I'll even host high definition videos for free, as I have an account with LimeLight Networks, a very significant provider in the content distribution network space.

A full rewrite of the manual is another option, we could even include multimedia elements as part of a builders DVD.

Working with TERF was always an idea that I was also open to. I doubt that they could afford my services, were I to take this on as a full time project. Working on it in my spare time, alone, isn't going to get this done anytime in the near future.

Pissing off Marc is a bad way to start.

:shrug: My intent wasn't to piss anyone off at all. I could demonstrate and rewrite his first post in a way that would have expressed the same sense of urgency and objection in a more respectful and civil manner. Keep in mind that I replied in kind, only. If he'd like to bury this and continue on to a more civil discussion as to what alternatives there are for keeping this alive, I'm perfectly willing to move forward..

 

Remember, RAF is (basically) gone.

TERF has the rights to the manuals, but, in this financial climate, what happens if they do not survive?

What other alternatives are there? TERF could release this into the public domain as well, if they wished, or grant the OpenEZ project the right to update the builders manual, etc.

There are a LOT of options here. Let's bring them all to the table and figure this out.

 

I had/have NO intent to profit from this venture in any way. I just wanted to help move this project into the 21st century.

 

The case may not last long, but even the perceived threat of a lawsuit is enough to stifle productivity, creativity, passion, etc.

Consider it stifled. Now that this is all settled, get back to building your airplane. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

... I don't think the Long-EZ plans actually are copyrightable. Ideas and process are not copyrightable, only expressions are.... 4 onwards are a recipe more than anything.

Since they ARE copyrighted, as are zillions of other "plans" for doing something, and since the rights to reproduce them have been transferred to TERF, it's unclear how you could entertain this notion. Since only a lawsuit against TERF could ever resolve the question (if there is one) in court, it seems reasonable to assume that there IS a copyright (since there is) and that it's valid.

 

(I do think the templates are copyrightable, though. So really, we've got the conversation bass-ackwards.)

They are copyrightable, and copyrighted. That's why this effort went to the trouble to reproduce them independently, rather than just copying them. "In their own words", in effect.

 

2) We can write it, in our own words, step by step.

Exactly. If someone wanted to take the 1000's of hours it would take to rewrite the LE plans in their own words, without copying or plagiarizing, but which would result in exactly the same aircraft, that would be perfectly legal and acceptable, and no-one could say boo about it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have people become substantially stupider, so they can't understand them anymore unless they're provided on a computer in PDF format?

The purpose of this was to bring the plans up to date. Why do you refuse to comprehend that? CP Newsletter updates, new build images (which are nigh unrecognizable in the, oh wait, PDF's that are provided on the TERF CD's.)

 

Life is not without its strange coincidences sometimes.

 

You really are wasting time on nitpicking. If you devoted half the energy you expend to ripping peoples thoughts apart to actually coming forth with a solution for all this, we'd be in a much better place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information