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Long EZ or Cozy III


SAF_Zoom

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Ok guys, here is the deal...

 

I'm all set to start my build, Terf CD, all CSA newsletters, printed templates for the Open EZ, all required $$$ set aside, building table done, etc... BUT...

 

Although I really like the Long EZ, the more I read about the LE the more I realize that the fit may be just a bit too tight. I'm 6'2" 240lbs with a 48" chest, my girlfriend is 5'8" and 140lbs with a ;) chest :D ... so with us two on board not a lot a "room" for fuel and baggage if we don't want to be to much over gross...

 

So my immediate reaction was let's make it wider... and lets fly over gross... but being an aircraft tech... I know that this is opening a big can of worms...

 

Now that I know more about the other types of canard aircraft out there, my eye got caught by the Cozy's... The MIV is too large for me. And don't want nor need a 4 seater.

 

So I though what about the Cozy III ? I know you guys will say, it’s has an even narrower in front seat… but my idea, would be to make it a large tandem two seater, kind of like an over size LE, instead of a 3 seater. I would arrange the interior like that of a FW-190 D-9 with large side flat horizontal instrument clusters (for fuel selector, gear actuator, electric trim switch, etc.). A Cozy would also allow for the twin 10” (diagonal) EFIS I would like to use…

 

So I guess my questions for those of you that already built or are flying these canard aircraft are:

 

- Is there a reason why they are so few Cozy III out there (I may be wrong here just my impression), or is it only due to the introduction of the MIV?

 

- Does the plane suffer from any shortcoming? (I don't what to call it/them defect(s))

 

- If one is to build a Cozy III, what support can one expect (assuming one can find complete plans for it). Is there any where to buy prefab parts for it (Strakes, aluminum hardware (i.e.: control tubes etc.). etc.). I know nothing of the Cozy III other than it’s a derivative of the LE… I’m at the beginning of this road…

 

- What are the flying caracteristic of the III compare to an LE (roll, climb, etc.)?

 

Finally, how would we (see above) fit in such a plane? Does the GIB leg room (and side room) similar to that of a Long EZ?

 

I don't have any problem with re-arranging thing inside of the cockpit. I'm more then qualify to keep it structurally sound and within specified weight limits... I just don't want to mess with the aerodynamics of it...

 

And BTW the reason I'm asking about the Cozy is that I found one for sale in tub state with a complete set of plans...

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Saf:

 

I am no Cozy III expert but I do know a few things about them. Almost all Longeze parts go on a cozy III except the canopy. It has the longeze motor mounts and landing gear and the spar and the wings are interchangeable. I like the motor mount system for the Cozy IV myself. I built a long and it was tough getting the Brock mount to fit properly. I think the 4 is built heavier for the extra weight it carries. A 3 is a over loaded Longeze So if you dont like flying over gross build a cozy Iv and make it a 2 seater it would not be very tough. Plans are available and there is lots of support on this and other sites. Personally I miss my Longeze You would fit in it I am not a lot smaller than you and I fit it fine. STeve build on

Steve Harmon

Lovin Life in Idaho

Cozy IV Plans #1466 N232CZ

http://websites.expercraft.com/bigsteve/

Working on Chapter 19,21

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Saf:

 

I am no Cozy III expert but I do know a few things about them. Almost all Longeze parts go on a cozy III except the canopy. It has the longeze motor mounts and landing gear and the spar and the wings are interchangeable. I like the motor mount system for the Cozy IV myself. I built a long and it was tough getting the Brock mount to fit properly. I think the 4 is built heavier for the extra weight it carries. A 3 is a over loaded Longeze So if you dont like flying over gross build a cozy Iv and make it a 2 seater it would not be very tough. Plans are available and there is lots of support on this and other sites. Personally I miss my Longeze You would fit in it I am not a lot smaller than you and I fit it fine. STeve build on

Thanks Steve,

 

I've printed out all of the Cozy's news letters and will read them over the weekend.

 

As for the Mark IV, it seems to be very large. And I may be mistaking but I assume the LE and Cozy III must be more nimble planes (better roll/climb rates). I know one can't suck and blow at the same time, but I would like a roomy plane with just a bit of zoom zoom zoom to hit.

 

I'm really scraching my head right now. As I don't know anybody in my neck of the wood that could give me advice regarding wich would be a better plane.

 

As stated before, I would like a relatively roomy planes that is fun to fly (read into this VERY basic aerobatic). It will also need to be confortable for long cross country flight (for 2 poeple)... Any one can give me the pros and cons of going:

 

- Slightly wider LE (2-4 inches max)

- Stock Cozy III aerodynamics, modified interior (2 tandem seating);

- Stock Cozy IV aerodynamics, modified interior (1 front seat, 2 back seat)

- Or all stock models

 

The input from flyers/builders would be greatly appreciated. As I may need to act quickly if I want to buy the project that I've spotted.

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Can't speak to the aerobatic capabilities, however two years ago at RR we were treated to a great aerobatic routine done by either a long or a Veri. (I think)

 

As far as the long or the cozy III, if you plan to do any traveling in it, do the III. One of the problems with these 2 pax planes is lack of baggage space. Although there is some space in the strakes, if there is a GIS (girl on side) get all of the baggage space you can.

 

My prior plane was a dragonfly. Wonderful 2 placer. However, when we traveled, we needed to UPS our baggage.

 

This caution is true whether you do one of the E-Zs or RVs.

 

There is nothing more useless than the altitude above you, the runway in back of you and the baggage space you don't have

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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Can't speak to the aerobatic capabilities, however two years ago at RR we were treated to a great aerobatic routine done by either a long or a Veri. (I think)

 

 

I suppose you can do aerobatics in a C-182, but there are better planes for the task. I know that there are performers using canards, but they are very rare.

 

I don't know if the designers have any restrictions on LE's and Cozy III's, but this is from Nat's official FAQ on his website:

 

Q. May I do aerobatics in a Mark IV?

 

A. No! The Mark IV is rated in the normal category. It was designed for economical, high-speed, cross- country flying. It cannot do stall or inverted maneuvers and picks up speed rapidly when pointed down. Aerobatics are not recommended.

Phil Kriley

Cozy #1460

Chapter 13 - nose

Right wing done - working on right winglet.

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Thanks guys, but when I say VERY light aerobatics it is more in terms of relitavely high G turnsa and Scissors.

 

I may do a few Split S and Immelmans... but that is it... I don't plan of flying it inverted...

 

Anybody here piloted both, the LE and Cozy III or IV and can give me a first hand account of how both planes behave.

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Thanks guys, but when I say VERY light aerobatics it is more in terms of relitavely high G turnsa and Scissors.

 

I may do a few Split S and Immelmans... but that is it... I don't plan of flying it inverted...

 

Anybody here piloted both, the LE and Cozy III or IV and can give me a first hand account of how both planes behave.

Good luck. I think you are an accident waiting to happen. :(

 

A Split S means you roll the plane inverted, then pull up elevator so that the plane is diving straight down and continue to pull until you are right-side up and flying in the opposite direction. The speeds (and G forces) will build VERY QUICKLY (please note my previous posting about pointing the plane down) and you will likely exceed VNE before you know what happened.

 

An Immelman is basically the opposite - you pull up into a half-loop - inverted at the top - and then roll out. The big danger there is not having enough aileron response at the top of the loop to complete the roll and getting into an inverted flat spin or stall or...

 

I've done light aerobatics (loops, rolls and spins) in a Cessna Aerobat that was intended for light aerobatics. Canard aircraft are safe in that in normal use they will not stall. But that doesn't mean they CAN'T be stalled, and if you stall one it will ruin your day... :(

Phil Kriley

Cozy #1460

Chapter 13 - nose

Right wing done - working on right winglet.

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Good luck. I think you are an accident waiting to happen. :(

 

A Split S means you roll the plane inverted, then pull up elevator so that the plane is diving straight down and continue to pull until you are right-side up and flying in the opposite direction. The speeds (and G forces) will build VERY QUICKLY (please note my previous posting about pointing the plane down) and you will likely exceed VNE before you know what happened.

 

An Immelman is basically the opposite - you pull up into a half-loop - inverted at the top - and then roll out. The big danger there is not having enough aileron response at the top of the loop to complete the roll and getting into an inverted flat spin or stall or...

 

I've done light aerobatics (loops, rolls and spins) in a Cessna Aerobat that was intended for light aerobatics. Canard aircraft are safe in that in normal use they will not stall. But that doesn't mean they CAN'T be stalled, and if you stall one it will ruin your day... :(

 

A Split S can be made by cork screwing into the dive... you don't have to properly roll it inverted... then it all become a factor of positive G loading and vertical acceleration... Same thing with the Immelman... except that you are pulling a few negative G on top...

 

We are not talking ACM where you go for the deck/stars here...

 

BTW Phil... did you fly any of these birds are you only in the building stage?

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A Split S can be made by cork screwing into the dive... you don't have to properly roll it inverted... then it all become a factor of positive G loading and vertical acceleration... Same thing with the Immelman... except that you are pulling a few negative G on top...

 

We are not talking ACM where you go for the deck/stars here...

 

BTW Phil... did you fly any of these birds are you only in the building stage?

Just building. But what you describe is not a Split S. I used to compete in R/C aerobatics - "pattern flying". Nat Puffer is the designer of the Cozy III and Cozy Mk IV, and I quoted his response regarding aerobatics in the Mk IV.

 

As you know, all planes are compromises. No one plane can do it all. The Cozy is designed for fast x-country flying into hard-surface airports. It is not intended for aerobatics, as I quoted the designer. It is also not intended for grass strips, although I'm sure someone will post that he has landed on grass.

 

Caveat aviator, to quote a friend of mine...

Phil Kriley

Cozy #1460

Chapter 13 - nose

Right wing done - working on right winglet.

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Though the Cozy isn't designed to to Aerobatics, and the designer is rightly covering his posterior when he designed the Cozy, I can recall one really sweet display of a non-aerobatic plane doing a Chandelle:

 

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

 

And before I get pounced on for calling the plane the 707, it's actually the Boeing Dash 80 rolling over a crowd at Lake Washington.....

 

All seriousness asside: "If Dash 8 Can, Cozy Can" ;).... PLEASE NOTE HUMOR.

 

This is supposedly a 1G manuever, so from a loads perspective it would be perfectly alright, but from getting fuel to the engines/aerodynamics, that's out of my experience on aerobatics :)..... Enjoy!

 

 

P.S. If you are going to attempt serious aerobatics, and from what I gather that's not a good idea, I recommend Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins :-P

Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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That's a great video clip, but my favorite is Bob Hoover doing a 1-g roll in an Aerocommander Shrike while pouring tea into a glass that is perched on his glare shield! :cool:

 

Seriously - just about any plane can do some "aerobatics", but only in the hands of a very capable (or stupid-and-lucky) pilot. All I'm suggesting is that if someone intends to do even mild aerobatics then perhaps there are better choices for that mission. :)

 

Too many people have been killed with their last words being "Hey, y'all watch this!"

Phil Kriley

Cozy #1460

Chapter 13 - nose

Right wing done - working on right winglet.

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Just building. But what you describe is not a Split S. I used to compete in R/C aerobatics - "pattern flying". Nat Puffer is the designer of the Cozy III and Cozy Mk IV, and I quoted his response regarding aerobatics in the Mk IV.

 

As you know, all planes are compromises. No one plane can do it all. The Cozy is designed for fast x-country flying into hard-surface airports. It is not intended for aerobatics, as I quoted the designer. It is also not intended for grass strips, although I'm sure someone will post that he has landed on grass.

 

Caveat aviator, to quote a friend of mine...

Rgr that... I don't want to fly over its structural limits... but I know LE are capable of light aerobatic... the Cozy III being essentially a wider LE may also be able too... I would not think of doing any of those thing in a Cozy IV or Velocity type aircraft...

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That's a great video clip, but my favorite is Bob Hoover doing a 1-g roll in an Aerocommander Shrike while pouring tea into a glass that is perched on his glare shield! :cool:

 

Seriously - just about any plane can do some "aerobatics", but only in the hands of a very capable (or stupid-and-lucky) pilot. All I'm suggesting is that if someone intends to do even mild aerobatics then perhaps there are better choices for that mission. :)

 

Too many people have been killed with their last words being "Hey, y'all watch this!"

Or "hold my beer..."

 

Kidding aside, what the max G load of the Cozy III, I beleive (I'm not sure) the stock LE is +6-3 and the Cozy IV is +3.6-??? but what about the III

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Saf_zoom

 

For what you want build a slightly wider Longeze you will be happier. I used to do some arobatics in my old Longeze scared the crap out of myself a couple of time but I dont regret it to this day it was a blast. There is no luggage room in a Long. You cant have a station wagon and a sports car in the same body it dont work. Yes I will probably do some arobatics in my Cozy Iv when I get it done. I am ready to be flamed. STeve build on

Steve Harmon

Lovin Life in Idaho

Cozy IV Plans #1466 N232CZ

http://websites.expercraft.com/bigsteve/

Working on Chapter 19,21

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I would also HIGHLY suggest you get that Cozy III tubb and plans. As Goldman correctly points out, you will NEVER be dissatisfied with the added luggage capacity. Ask Burrall Sanders what he thinks of his Cozy III, with his engine and performance. You will have a FANTASTIC machine in my opinion if you go with your seating idea in a stock airframe III. Most couples want side by side seating and since that doesn't matter to you two, why not a roomy tandem? You will probably just need to keep your ballast in the nose to offset the rear passenger...no biggy. Lots of couples put pods on LongEze's because they have no room for baggage. You will not have that problem and can avoid the draggage of pods.

Any positive gEE MANUVERS CAN BE SAFELY CARRIED OUT IN A lONGEZE OR cOZY. i'T THE SUSTAINED INVERTED OR HAMMERHEAD OR ETC TRICKS THAT WILL KILL YOU. sEARCH THE ARCHIVES HERE FOR THE DISCUSSIONS.

OH DANG, I am not going to retype that.

The highlight of the completed tubb, [correctly constructed], is that it will save you about 8 months at least of work. THey typically only fetch the cost of materials, no labor, so dont pay too much.

Self confessed Wingnut.

Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.?

Get up off that couch!!! =)

 

Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.

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Having flown and owned both the Longez and the Cozy MKIV, the Cozy is much more nimble---especially noticible in roll. Sorry---never time the roll---so can only give you a qualitative assessment.

 

Chandelles and just basic maneuvering the airplane around is pretty fun. The plane pretty much sucks rolling it over on its back---only did it once in my Longeze and said---sure was not meant for that!

 

You need to figure out your mission first, then pick out your plane. To me, you have many things going against you for this design

-fit issues

-performance issues

 

You may do much better in a much more acrobatic RV that also has more room inside.

 

The EZs are a real cool looking airplane----but don't just buy on looks when you have a mission mismatch.

 

Even being your size----and wanting a good cross country machine----you may have a good fit in an EZ.

 

But right now, I am not seeing it.

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Just took a look at some video I shot a while back. A roll to the left, 5 degrees nose up on the entry indicating about ~140kts or so gave a 360 degree roll at ~4 seconds. That was with a tad bit of left rudder kicked in to help things along, and positive G's throughout.

 

There is also a video on youtube already shot by the GIB while doing some rolls. Watch it a few times and you will get a feel for the planes rate of roll. It's not pretty.

 

The nose really comes through the roll when inverted as you try to keep positive G's. If you push negative while inverted in an attempt to keep the nose close to the horizon you introduce some new problems if you are not injected.

Allen

Long-Ez N701DS

1998 O-320 160HP

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5 degrees up at entry is ridiculous, we aren't F-16's. And a 4 second roll in a Long EZ is not being done correctly. Try 35 degrees or more and you'll have a much nicer result at 1 G, no injection necessary. 45+ degrees will get you two consecutively pleasing rolls...... with minor G pullout. And rudder is not a 'tad maybe' it requires a stong application for coordination of the manuever. You should definitely take an aerobatic lesson before you try this stuff and ignore the dumb nonsense you see on U-tube. I was and continue to be taught by the guy that beat Wayne Handley in his first competition.

Check your operating limitations too.......

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Rvig- these airplane are strong enough, but are NOT meant for what I described. I am parroting information that is commonplace to the EZE family. Positive G maneuvers are fine...there are others [including you, it seems] that stretch that envelope. These aircraft are not fully aerobatic machines.

Obviously YMMV !!

Self confessed Wingnut.

Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.?

Get up off that couch!!! =)

 

Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.

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I am parroting information that is commonplace to the EZE family.

That's the problem with 'parroting'. And it's incorrect. But real enjoyment of our planes must be approached carefully and with proper training, not with old wives tales and boogie man warnings. Build your plane, go fly it and find out for yourself before you preach to others. I'm not preaching, just pointing out that there is a wonderful world of flying that I'm surprised so many don't enjoy.

'Fully aerobatic' is a long stretch from what we are discussing here. What is often called 'Gentlemans Aerobatics' are very easy on an airframe and our craft are fully capable. Minor inverted flight will simply stop the motor. So does intentionally running a tank dry, which many of us do for various reasons. If you saw the beautiful routines done at Oshkosh this year by many varied aircraft including a lovely old Beech 18 and a new VLJ you'd be ashamed to say our Long EZ can't do that and do it even better and snappier.

The problem is that many pilots never learn how to really fly a plane. They learn simple flying, then they learn how to fly to places, then they learn instrument flying, then they learn multiengine flying, but they never learn real flying. Take an aerobatic lesson or two or three and you'll find there is a whole new world out there that is not dangerous, is not damaging to the airframe and is one hell of a lot of fun. Wing-overs are nothing, rolls have been done by Airliners, loops are, well, no big deal. For someone insisting on O-540 power I'm surprised you don't know this. But then I'd rather watch the sky go 'round then the gas gauge......

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