Quick piloting question - Long EZ

[SAF_Zoom]

As some of you know... I'm debating buying versus building Long EZ (or Open EZ)... but this is another story.

 

I presently have this great bird on my PC hardrive, I got this here:

 

http://www.alphasim3.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=235

 

Well my question is: What is the maximum speed one can use the rudders as airbrake...

 

Also as anyone compared this virtual version to the real thing... and how do they measure up?

 

Thanks,

[Drew Swenson]

You can use rudders (as airbrake or not) over the complete aircraft flight envelope.

 

The actual speedbrake is designed to blow back at a speed just above approach speed. I have electric speedbrakes, so they don't blow back. I only use them near a place I intend to land. If it gets stuck down, you won't last long airborne since you will cook your motor fast (blocks the cooling inlet).

 

On the flight models---I have not been all that satisifed with any of them for canard aircraft. The handling just never really feels like the real thing. I would not judge a particular aircraft based on its flight model.

[Allen C]

There are not a lot of canard simulators out there, and I have flown this one extensively. The guys at Alpha asked that I play with it while it was in beta testing. They wanted to release it as a game so they only wanted to approximate the flight characteristics. Their emphasis was to test the market, and create a realistic and fully functional panel. The designers intended to submit it for an award for their design of the instrument panel. The actual flight model used for this was a modified form of an already existing code. They did not want to dedicate the time and energy to make this hyper-realistic.

 

 

Before I bought my plane, I logged many hours in MS Flight Sim in a Long-Ez that I found on the web. While the flight characteristics may be off, it does not mean that the simulator is not useful. I would suggest it only for the sight picture. In my experience, flying the real thing is MUCH easier than the sim. It is also much more fun!

 

 

I still fly my sim to stay frosty with my emergency checklists. Flight sim 10 has an ability to set up random failures. I have mine set for random instrument failures to occur at random times. Again, the sim is great for sight picture so I also use to practice landing at unfamiliar airports that I will be going into.

 

 

Since you have the sim already, you can fly my plane. Mine is the one with the orange paint. N701DS. They used my plane as the model for the sim.

 

 

Good luck.

 

 

Allen

[Waiter]

Deploying both rudders gets more difficult as speed increases.

 

Also, Deploying both rudders can introduce significant nose up pitch change, depending on speed and rudder forces.

 

I use the rudders for aerobatics, ACM, takeoff and landings. I don't use the rudders for normal turn/bank during normal cruising type flight.

 

Usually, after takeoff, I move my feet in front of the rudder pedals (this is a more relaxed position)

 

Waiter

[SAF_Zoom]

Thanks Drew,

 

I'm not judging the Long Ez based on this FSX version. I'm pretty sold on the idea of buying or building one.

 

Just wanted to know if the feel was right. As I'm practicing a lot of landing in the virtual EZ.

 

Finally, is the rudder response irl so week.

[Lynn Erickson]

Thanks Drew,

 

I'm not judging the Long Ez based on this FSX version. I'm pretty sold on the idea of buying or building one.

 

Just wanted to know if the feel was right. As I'm practicing a lot of landing in the virtual EZ.

 

Finally, is the rudder response irl so week.

In the real thing the rudders do not do that much slowing. they add some but it is not going to save a bad approach. I don't ever use them on landing as they effect the roll way more then speed and they will cause more unwanted banking and yaw if not deployed perfectly equal. I use them only if needed to line it up in the last few feet. otherwise you almost forget they are there. if you need to use them in the video game then it is not like the real thing.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Just wanted to know if the feel was right. As I'm practicing a lot of landing in the virtual EZ.

I have not flown any flight sim version of any canard, but I am told by many users that the X-Plane versions of the VE/LE/COZY are pretty good.

 

I would NEVER consider any MS FlightSim models as being in any way indicative of what a real airplane will do, since MS FS doesn't use real physics (as X-Plane does) to determine performance. MSFS can't even correctly model a C-172 - how's it ever going to do a LE/COZY?

 

Finally, is the rudder response irl so week.

I'll respectfully disagree with Lynn on some issues. The rudders are not used for "slowing" the plane (neither is the belly brake) - they're used for drag increase and glideslope control.

 

hile I do not use the rudders at all in cruise flight above about 120 mph, I use them all the time when slow and when landing (COZY MKIV, but the rudders are identical to the large rudder version on the LE). I use simultaneous deployment on many approaches - I find that the descent rate will increase about 300 fpm with both rudders deployed vs. not deployed.

 

I also find that if I control my airspeed well (many canard flyers fly their approaches WAY too fast), I can easily mimic C-172-like approach angles by using the belly-brake, both rudder deflection, and slipping. The rudders are more than powerful enough to add 500-800 fpm descent rates to the existing descent rates by allowing a good slip with a 15-25 degree bank angle.

[Big Steve]

Having been in a plane with marc piloting he does a super job of "slipping" when a bit high. I used to do it in my Longeze all the time I could fly a lot tighter, higher paterns doing it.

 

PS. Marc: How are you comming on getting your "MO JO" back to start working on your plane and get it flying??? I will be needing a check ride in a couple of years. Lets not let it drag on to long??? STeve

 

 

STeve build on

[Lynn Erickson]

I'll respectfully disagree with Lynn on some issues. The rudders are not used for "slowing" the plane (neither is the belly brake) - they're used for drag increase and glideslope control.

 

"In the real thing the rudders do not do that much slowing." Is that not what I said?

they do increase drag and if you deploy them and hold a 0 rate of desent they will slow you down.

my plane is flown a bit different on approach. I can fly a much steeper approach then a stock cozy do to the retractable landing gear. I can fly a higher approach and when the gear is deployed the approach angle is a lot steeper. use the belly board and rudders with a slip and it is a like a falling rock.

[SAF_Zoom]

Thanks for all the replies. Will keep them in mind..

 

The virtual version on the LE is quite like you guys describe. Using both rudder gives a steeper decent with no increase in airspeed.

 

Deploying the landing brake will cause a large nose up moment and slight drop in airspeed. Probably more due to the nose pitching up than the actual effect of the airbrake.

 

I can land this virtual bird well below 85kts... all the way down to 65kts... but thats stalling it on the runway...

 

And again, thanks for all the input.

[CBarber]

Hmmmmmmm? I thought you were not supposed to "stall" canards on the runway like the non convential engine in front guys, but instead were to fly it all the way down to touchdown. IIRC, nasty things happen like slamming the front nose down if you "stalled" it down. Virtual or real world. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[Waiter]

Deploying the landing brake will cause a large nose up moment and slight drop in airspeed.

On a LongEZ, the Landing brake doesn't induce any pitch changes

 

Also, Convential stall landings are not possible. If you hold the aircraft off the runway and continue to increase the nose up pitch, at some point, the canard will stall. When it does, the nose will drop and the canard will start flying again. At no time does the main wing stall.

 

 

Now, if your talking about holding the canard off after the mains have touched the ground, then this is an entirely different story. I can easily hold the nose off at speeds down to 35-40kts.

 

After touchdown, slowly pull the stick back as the aircraft continues its rollout, Hold the canard at a point where you can still see over the top of it (Never raise the canard above the horizon while in close proximity to the ground, this will certianly result in a prop strike.)

 

Apply both rudder pedals slowly, This drag from the rudders also helps hold the nose off, and makes "landing" the nose gear a lot smoother.

 

After a little practice, I can smoothly lower the nose from a very hi angle of attack by easing the stick forward, and pressing both rudders (The brakes havn't taken hold yet, (no stall THUMP)

 

NOTE - USE CAUTION - I think its entirely possible to induce so much pitch up at slow speeds (i.e. 40-45kts) that you could easily flip the plane over on its back.

 

Waiter

[SAF_Zoom]

Thanks guys,

 

My duscription of stalling the plane.. was maybe off...

 

What I should have said that : at that point I'm "running out of elevator". So its not a main wing stall... its just that the Canard his nearing its stall....

 

Regards,

[ZUCZZ]

You asked:

'What is the maximum speed one can use the rudders as airbrake'

 

There is no maximum speed, since they have a spring in the system that prevent them from deploying when there is too much wind over them. (or should that read deploy all the way)

 

They do add some drag and therefore will help you slow down when deployed. Note that they both deploy by the time you start braking.

 

When you run out of elevator, the most probable cause is that your CofG is near the front (or even forward) of the loading limit. Alternatively the spring resistance is insufficient in the trim set-up.

 

FWIW

[Drew Swenson]

You asked:

There is no maximum speed, since they have a spring in the system that prevent them from deploying when there is too much wind over them. (or should that read deploy all the way)

FWIW

I agree with the effect----or I should say that the wind (speed) MAY prevent the rudders from deploying all the way. However, I always thought that the springs were there to make sure that you can get full depression on the brakes without ripping your rudders off.

 

Note: Cozys and Berkuts have springs----Longez's don't (unless modified to follow Cozy-like design).