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#1 EricD

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 05:08 PM

Sorry if its a repost... the first one seems to have just dissapear ;) I guys, I'm new to this forum but like all of you I was bitten by the Long EZ bug when I first saw one being put through its passes (first test flights) by one of our teacSorry her there back in my college days (studying at the National Institute of Aeronautics near Montreal (1994)). Well now I have the financial resources to build (or buy) an Open (Long) Ez. I know that I want an O320 version with all the bells and whistles (including a full glass cockpit and three axes autopilot). But as it stands now... even if I do buy a pristine flying Long EZ it will have to be retrofitted with the Glass Cockpit I want. Which means a serious $$$ output and downtime. The downtime part is what I have a problem with. So I got to thinking, what if it was possible, for a period maybe not seriously longer (count maybe six more months), possible to build an Open EZ…. This is when I had a crazy idea when I was reading trough all of the post in the Open Ez (and other threads). Seeing how people here are legitimately trying to help each other reaching their collective goals... which is flying a cloned Long EZ… a proven design that should not bring them all the way to the sight of the crash... as one comedian put it. OK back to my idea. This idea came from a post I’ve read somewhere in here were one mentioned that it was possible to build a Long EZ in six months as Burt Rutan brother did it in the late 1970's. To this was answered that he had the benefit of having built one already. That got me thinking.... EXPERIENCE... here’s an interesting concept. So here is my crazy idea. What about forming a consortium of builders. Each could be assigned a series of component to build. These would then be “sold” for a predetermined price (being the price of materials) to another member of the consortium. This way you speed up the building process. Think of it as outsourcing (just like the big boys do it... i.e. Bombardier). So the building could be spread out as follows: So builder A : Ronz Canards builder B : Right/Left side of fusalege builber C : Bulkheads and seats backs builder D : Main Spar builder E : Wing builder F : Ailerons (2x) builder G : Vertical stabilisers builder H : Ruders (2x) builder I : Wing strake builder J : Engine cowlings Etc... BTW - Keep in mind this is just a rough example, people with a more intimate knowledge of the building process should determined the actual “splitting” of thing to do. This way you get a "QUICK BUILD" kit and not the build it from scratch type of project. Everybody capitalises on the building experience of others instead of learning as we go along. This also makes for the maximum use of all of the builders jigs. One setup, but multiples identical parts being made. Sure the first unit takes longer to produce but the following units get easier and faster to build. Also a quick build option would still be in compliance with the 51% rule. This is almost guaranteed to prevent the "builders quitting" syndrome that plague 3000+ hours to finish projects. Just look at the amount of unfinished projects out there... This is feasible if everything is build per plan. No deviations allowed. And everybody builds from a "uniform" set of plan. This is actually quit simple. We (member of a consortium) each sign a contract in which the only liability toward each other is for the cost of material that others incur in accordance with a predetermined delivery schedule. So in my previously mentioned example builder A would buy the necessary component to build maybe 3 canards (at a time) and would get busy (building a total of 10 altogether). As he finishes each canard, he would then ship them in compliance with the previously agreed schedule to its owner... Finally, this could also be an answer to those of you with limited space. As larger items could be contracted out, with you only fabricating smaller components. This could also capitalise on the strength of some (i.e. some here a machinist and have access to CNC mills and hydraulic presses…). Well just my 2 cents,

#2 Drew Swenson

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 08:13 PM

D Rutan and M Melville built their Longez's simultaneously with more or less the method that you mentioned. But they literally built side by side. For example, one would build 2 of one kind of bulkhead and the other would build 2 of another. From what I read, the person who did not build the part, got the choice of the two parts (pretty good quality control). Might be kind of difficult to get a lot of people building parts that would match your schedule. It would be pretty good to build with a buddy----2 of the same plane.

#3 TMann

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 08:32 PM

..... that would not play well with the 51% rule.
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#4 steve

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 08:52 PM

..... that would not play well with the 51% rule.

the big hit mite be the parts that get built on the tub,ie strakes,cowling's.
but it could work.
some body needs lots of cash for his ez all at once so we could all start doing are part (pun intended). and would that be you? if so I'm in for a wing
cuz i need to build mine this month, so whats one more:p
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#5 CBarber

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 11:46 PM

I don't know if the "so called" 51% rule (or, IIRC the major portions rule) would be too much of an issue. Again, IIRC, it excludes things like enginesa and wiring and talks more to the major type of processes not the actual build time percentage. I believe either Wayne and/or Marc are quite versed on this point. All that being said, I like the fact that I have intimate knowledge of every inch of my bird. I enjoy moving from one stage to the next. But, if you stated goal is speed, it my perhaps work. I do know that I could now build twice as good a plane in half the time if I had to (heavans forbid:( :sad: ) do it again. Finally, I would not think that retrofitting a glass panel in an already flying airplane would be that big of a challenge or be that time consuming. I don't think it would be half as hard as steam instruments. FWIW. All the best, Chris
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#6 schmeddz

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:45 AM

Here's an Idea. Try getting into a two or three way partnership on an aircraft. Then see how much infighting there is with two (or three) guys who used to be friends before they tried to share an airplane! :D Hang around enough airports and ask that question! What you are proposing on a much grander scale is to bring total strangers into line with your own personal wishes, desires, schedule, ethics, etc. What if the work doesn't meet your personal building standards? Who sucks up the bill for labor and parts costs? Why isn't everybody doing that now? Good luck with that! I'm on my third airplane project. You either get busy and do it, or it doesn't happen.

#7 EricD

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:18 AM

Well I'm not strap for cash... and will probably buy a complete aircraft... life is to short to spend 5-10 years building... But I understand the satisfaction that must comes from building such a fantastic aircraft :D As I said before it is just an idea... The comment about a partnership is totally off topic. As this is in no way an "ownership partnership". I would NEVER enter such a partnership. But I realise that for some who just don't have the financial resources to own/operate a plane it could be a viable option. That being said... If one wants a Velocity.... one can get a "quick build" kit. Which reduces the build time significantly. This would be a way of doing just that. I realise that a team of 10+ builders would be hard to coordinate. But it could still be done on a smaller scale. The way I see it having a quality control system in place is critical, as is having a way of resolving conflicts/disputes. I'm now a forensic accountant, and the way I see it is quit simple. Have everybody in the project deposit a certain amount "in trust" through an attorney. This act as a warranty if any problem should arise. Instead of buying the material needed to build every single parts, one could buy enought to build two. So the one he is working on and the upcoming parts. This would serve to keep the cash output to its minimum and would reduce the risk of downtime due to inventory shortages. If a dispute should arise as to the quality of one workmanship... the "builder" and the "acquirer" could each mandate a fellow builder (a member of the team) to review the part in question. Each of the "mandated builders" would then appoint a third builder who is essentially the tie braker. This makes for an impartial review and conclusion. The part could be ship from one to the other in order to reduce cost. This is often used as an alternate dispute resolution method (instead of going to trial). The decision of the panel of mandated builder should be binding and without appeal. Either the part is deemed: - satisfactory and as to be paid for; - unsatisfactory and the maker as to rebuild it and the buyer pays for the new part ONLY; - the buyer elects to builds the parts himself and as no obligation to pay for the unsatisfactory part; or - Something along these line. The key to such a relationship is to have a clear CONTRACT that lays done what is expected of everyone.

#8 EricD

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:34 AM

Finally, I would not think that retrofitting a glass panel in an already flying airplane would be that big of a challenge or be that time consuming. I don't think it would be half as hard as steam instruments. FWIW.

All the best,

Chris


Hi Chris,

I know that the retrofit should not be a problem. But I'm looking for one with a few mods including a longer nose. So the retrofit would include other stuff... and a longer down time...

Regards,

#9 Edge 513

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:34 AM

You lost me with the first post...sorry:confused: ...and sealed it with this last one. Building is supposed to be enjoyable, even fun. Turning it into a contractual relationship between several individuals would be an onus without a bonus. All of that would be preferrable to changing out a panel of instruments?:confused: Buy a Longeze and tear off the nose and build the longer shaped nose you want..its just fiberglass and easy to do. Or find one with a long nose. Many have been done!!

#10 EricD

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 11:05 AM

the big hit mite be the parts that get built on the tub,ie strakes,cowling's.
but it could work.
some body needs lots of cash for his ez all at once so we could all start doing are part (pun intended). and would that be you? if so I'm in for a wing
cuz i need to build mine this month, so whats one more:p


Hi Steve,

What type are you building. Is it a Long EZ ? Are all mandatory modification included in your design. I would like to ear from your project. I would be certainly interested in buying a complete wing.

Hope to ear from you,

Regards,

#11 steve

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 11:44 AM

Hi Steve,

What type are you building. Is it a Long EZ ? Are all mandatory modification included in your design. I would like to ear from your project. I would be certainly interested in buying a complete wing.

Hope to ear from you,

Regards,

mine is a cozy4 with a 20b, and i added 1.5 years worth of mods. it is in short the same as the long only bigger.
yours has 1/6" stuff, mine has 1/8" stuff.
we had this talk 2 years back with a fella in a wheel chair who wanted to build his own plane. it seemed fine for all of us to donate(sell) are time(10 hours) to help him get started, but with him i don't think he had the commitment to finish and that would piv the best of us to put in so mush work just to see it land on ebay in 4 years.
i speak only for my self but for the most part there is not a part built that i have seen on this web ring that i would not fly with. you would go far to try this endeavor and end up with a wonderful aircraft.
cut down on cost: find your 20 builders, then buy a full roll of uni and bid and the hole foam kit but have the foam shipped to the builder with the glass (let us use are epoxy) then we ship the part to one spot (your house?)or ?

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#12 Neverquit

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:19 PM

I'm in...I've got a lot of time on my hands.;) What you want made and how much you willing to spend? Of course you understand the history of these planes is most never get finished. I would at least expect payment first. :thumbsup: Stevo..How's that new garage/hanger coming?

#13 EricD

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:30 PM

I'm in...I've got a lot of time on my hands.;) What you want made and how much you willing to spend? Of course you understand the history of these planes is most never get finished. I would at least expect payment first. :thumbsup:

Stevo..How's that new garage/hanger coming?



I ear you... its the problem with 3000+ hours projects.... Let's see if others are interested.

BTW... before anything can get started we need to write everything down...

As for how much I'm willing to pay... well what I mentioned above is more of an exchange of services.... Due to the laws up here in Canada I know that I will have to do most of the stuff that gets perminently inclose... But still some kind of arrangement can be made...

Regards,

#14 schmeddz

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:09 PM

As I said before it is just an idea...

The comment about a partnership is totally off topic. As this is in no way an "ownership partnership". I would NEVER enter such a partnership. But I realise that for some who just don't have the financial resources to own/operate a plane it could be a viable option. That being said...

I realise that a team of 10+ builders would be hard to coordinate. But it could still be done on a smaller scale. The way I see it having a quality control system in place is critical, as is having a way of resolving conflicts/disputes.


The key to such a relationship is to have a clear CONTRACT that lays done what is expected of everyone.


It was never off topic. You usually can't get two or three friends to agree to rules even with a contract, someone in the group always thinks he's getting screwed by the others, or spending too much time/money on the airplane, then with less benefit of use. How do you expect to to get ten or more strangers in different places to agree to build what and to what quality? Even if you spread some wealth around? :rolleyes:
I'm in the aerospace business and I know all about subcontracting. What you are talking about is what we would call "Cost prohibitive."
I mean no disrespect and I'll say good luck with your idea. You'll need a government contract to pay for it that way. :cool:

You, by yourself with limited help, can build an airplane!

#15 emteeoh

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:14 PM

SAF... As I understand it, the canadian laws won't require that you *DO* the parts that are permanently enclosed, but that they be inspected by the MD before they're permanently enclosed. And ignore the 51% rule: that's an american thing. I still don't get the canadian rules, but my impression is that you really just need to be involved in the project. Some people would have you beleive that if you act as a project manager, thats enough. Of course, I am not a lawyer, nor am I a builder, so take everything I say with a bucket of salt. Also, you should see if there is an RAA chapter near you. You might be able to find a few interested people there. I went to one brampton ON meeting, and there were (IIRC) 1 VE builder, 2 LE builders and 2 or 3 LE flyers. Given that the room couldn't have had more than about 30 people in it, thats a good percentage. You might get similar numbers in your local QC chapter.

#16 steve

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 05:02 PM

I'm in...I've got a lot of time on my hands.;) What you want made and how much you willing to spend? Of course you understand the history of these planes is most never get finished. I would at least expect payment first. :thumbsup:

Stevo..How's that new garage/hanger coming?


we get 100 carpenters all in the same spot and build a house in 5 days
as a test bed, i don't want to be payed, i do want my name up in lights
for helping get a bird up in the sky:D a simple credit line in the end of a wep page would suffice:thumbsup: as for QT, don't volunteer to build what you think wont look gr8 (so no canard from me) and no windows from Greg:envy:
est. dust is good with wings and the jigging of same. i think my smp/cozygirl strakes look way cool so i would do them or bulk heads or lots of other untested mods, like my roll bar. there are lots of parts others are proud of
just my 32 cents. as per the shop/hanger
just got the framing passed
Steve M. Parkins

#17 TMann

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 06:25 PM

You, by yourself with limited help, can build an airplane!


Very true!
The biggest reason Dick and Mike were able to build a plane in six months is due to this single reason: THEY WORKED ON IT!
I know folks who haven’t put in 2000 hours in 10 plus years. If you are disciplined enough to WORK on your project, it will get done in fairly short order.
As for someone else building composite parts for my plane ……. No thanks for 2 reasons:
1. I want to know what went into the part.
2. I don’t want to share the fun! (I’m selfish like that.)
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#18 Kent Ashton

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 08:36 PM

T mann is right. You can build one of these things yourself with a lot less hassle than trying to coordinate with 10 other people. God what a nightmare that would be! A story: I was in an EAA chapter where the members were always saying "Let's build and airplane" so after years of hearing that we started an RV-6 from scratch. You would think it would go fast, right, with 20 enthusiastic builders working on it every weekend? No way. We worked on it for about seven years, must have gone though 75-100 different builders, it was hard to keep anyone committed, some guys would come in to BS and keep the real builders from getting anything done, guys would work on the airplane a while and lose interest or start their own projects, and the workmanship was barely adequate. We finally got it on the gear and sold it after we couldn't decide how to finance the engine. SAF_Zoom, You gotta understand human nature. You would end up building 10 canards, having to sell eight of them because eight of your guys backed out of the deal, and you'd still need to build the rest of your airplane.

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#19 Jack Morrison

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 09:31 PM

Your right on everything Tom. Have to work on them consistantly. I built my E Racer from start to first flight in 18 months, plus working a full time job. I also took off 60 days to help a friend bubble and paint a Cozy 4 in between. It can be done, total dedication to work rules. Jack E Racer Extreme

#20 Andrew Anunson

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:19 PM

I think its a crazy idea, and I don't think it will work. Also, building is fun. Builders don't usually think of it as a waste of time to build, but instead aa a nice way to spend an hour or a day doing something productive and challenging. I've never heard of anyone building at home in six months... usually over 2000 hours. IF you worked on it 40 hours per week, that would be at least a year. If you work on it 10 hours a week, well you get the picture (years). If you want a quicker build, buy a homebuilt incomplete on ebay. It'll save you time and money (hopefully).
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