Blue Mountain EFIS Lite Gen 3

[rviglierchio]

Does anyone have any experience with this unit? I have one response that it was a pretty crummy unit and wondered if that was an isolated experience. I've seen the big BMA unit work really well but have also heard horror stories about the software and updayes. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

[TMann]

I'd ask Cozygirrrl that question.

They have Blue Mountain in their Cozy. If memory serves me, I think Chrissi worked there at one time.

That said, if she thinks enough of them to install it in her panel, that's a good endorsement.

 

I've heard some bad PR form some folks but none that are flying as I recall.

[Edge 513]

At 2007 RR, Steve Wright said he was 50/50 on his Big BMA unit. He was kind of exasperated when he was speaking in a small group next to his Stagger-Eze. Another guy said when his worked it was phenomenal..when it didn't it was catpoop.

Thats pretty iffy. I know the Girrrls made them look pretty, as they had a hand in the external design...but as to the insides...maybe things are getting better.

[Wayne Hicks]

I have two BMA EFIS Lite Gen 4's on order. I participate on the BMA discussion boards and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Here's what I can tell you.

 

(1) Most of the "problems" are with the earlier units -- the Generation 3 (G3) units and anything earlier than that. These boxes do not have the processing horsepower to keep the features and the software that drives them happy. The G4 units have the latest/greatest processors. They can sing the high notes comfortably. Most of the complaints are about unit previous to G4's. Not too many complaints about the G4s. I don't know if that'd because the G4s are just that good or that there aren't that many actually up and flying yet. Maybe a combination of both.

 

(2) Some of the advertised features don't work yet. Currently, BMA is having a little trouble getting the SL30 serial connection to work properly. This connection allows SL30 data to be shown on the BMA's HSI display. Also allows the BMA unit to change frequencies on the SL30. All BMA units are affected. BMA's biggest focus right now seems to be getting the units to work seamlessly with the Garmins. The SL30 users are not amused.

 

(3) Some of the flight and nav planning functions don't work quite right yet. But BMA is slowly getting them to work. The EFIS One is the only unit with built-in flight planning. The EFIS One G4s work fine. I don't know about the earlier generations One's. The other units -- the Lite, Sport, Plus -- don't have built-in flight planning.

 

(4) The autopilot functions work well when the units are using their internal GPS. BMA has recently gotten it to work well using an external, analog source (like from a Garmin). All G4 unit will follow the flight plan from the Garmins.

 

(5) The advertised coupled ILS approach functions -- i.e., localizer and glideslope intercept, capture, fly down onto runway -- don't work. However, there is a beta version in test and progress is being made. They've gotten the localizer intercept and capture to work. They're working on the glideslope flydown and they should have it working soon.

 

(6) Some other piddly features don't work reliably. Like the wind vectoring, true airspeed, and density altitude, etc. But BMA is working to fix those too.

 

(7) Software Updates. Hmmmm. Funny thing happens here. Those people that actually read the operator's manual? Those people who actually follow the step-by-step instructions? They have NO problems with the software updates. Those who don't read the manual? They seem to have all kinds of problems. So, read the manual.

 

Just some personal observations here:

 

(8) The people doing the most complaining are those that want top notch features at rock bottom prices. They want Garmin 1000 performance at a Dynon price.

 

(9) The second set doing the most complaining are those who don't install the units properly, or try to install it in a way not intended by BMA. (Like cross-strapping two LITES with an ethernet hub so that either unit can drive the autopilot.)

 

(10) The final (?) set of complainers are those who want custom features or who want a feature to work a slightly different way.

 

(11) BMA is its own "worst" enemy. They aggressively hit the market with a box claiming to do alot of things. But the boxes were slow to fulfill the features. BMA readily admits this has been a marketing blunder. It admits that what it should have done was to get the prototypes working and tested to 99.9% before releasing the production boxes for sale.

 

(12) There are still many, many things that the Gen 4 units do well. All the EFIS basic six-pack functions work flawlessly. The terrain mapping is awesome. The autopilots seem to work well in canard airplanes.

 

THE BOTTOM LINE: You take your chances with any piece of experimental, non-certified avionics. All experimental EFIS manufacturers have problems of one kind or another. For every complainer attacking BMA, there are others attacking Dynon, Grand Rapids, True Trak, etc. If you're TRULY interested in experimental EFIS units, the VERY BEST thing you can do is subscribe to their discussion boards, user groups, and avionics discussion lists. The dirt is out there for allllllllllll to see. Keep in mind, though, that the lists are generally populated by complainers. Happy reporters don't seem to post their happy reports. They're too busy being happy flying.

[TMann]

Wayne ..... I'd say that was 'fair and balanced!'

 

I spoke with a builder who had joined the 'product bashers' bandwagon and was quite vocal about how bad the manufacturer's product was. Somewhere along the way, he determined the product was a quality item and determined that it would be ideal for his project.

 

What he didn't count on was the fact that the manufacturer was a forum scanner and now will not take his order.

 

Fair & balanced is good!

'Somebody said that they heard somebody say it was cr@p' may get you in trouble.

[Edge 513]

Wayne, Respectfully I say- hmmmmm? At the price of the feature/performance challenged BMA units you have described- I have heard NOTHING similar to that from Chris Esselstyn about his Grand Rapids Technology HorizonOne series dual screen set up. He has NO gripes, LOVES the units and they perform properly with hi Garmin 430.

I don't think its fair to put GRT in your "working-out-the-bugs" list of equipment/manufactures list.

And saying everybody wants G1000 performance but are just to cheap to buy it is kind of a slap...some guys I know are not building/flying on a shoestring budget, and are not simple limpwristed whiners... I was always schooled that if you were sold something, say a post hole auger..you weren't supposed to be pleased that it just made noises and spun around, it was supposed to auger. If you want the features that you describes the BMA units as providing, you can truly get them from Dynon for less than 3 grand.

But I thank you for the history lesson on BMA. I wish they were great. They have good sized screen options and really look nice on their website. If I hadn't heard that conversation between Steve Wright and the other guy [i guess they are the "whiner" type] I wouldn't have felt so iffy. Maybe a later G5 series will be the ones to get.

IMHO

[Cozy Girrrl]

Thanks Edge,

I can only take credit for the styling of the products...I wanted our plane to have a cool panel. I cannot claim anything for the implimentation, good or bad.

If you are building now I would wait, just leave your panel blank, by the time you are ready to populate it you will also know everything you need to know how to either make holes in it or sculpt it to whatever your dreams are, what you will not know till then is what is current, who is still in business etc.

Walking through the buildings at Osh this year looked like EFII (plural of EFIS), yes, EFII-R-US everybody had them. Many new names on the market as well. Wait a few years, there will be a flood, processors will get faster, memory larger and cheaper, control boxes small, much cheaper displays, then a shakeout and market mortalities and finally mature stable and less costly EFIS panels. Glass is here to stay, the products and players won't be here as we know them. By the time our plane flys the BMA panels in it will be VERY obsolete and we may be lucky to get support/updates.

Good news is maybe it will make steam guages more plentiful, they will always do the trick and only fail one at a time, you can always use a few of them as backup when you do make up your mind what glass panel you want to use. Don't be in a rush... even if BMA is still the best looking

Regards, Chrissi

[Cozy Girrrl]

I used to follow some of the threads on the BMA forum. People do not like to admit they are wrong, stupid whatever. There are a lot of people who will blame everything and everyone else but themselves.

The complex BMA gen 3 boxes are beyond the capabilities of most user installed products. I doubt that many who consider themselves to be technically compitant could install one without making some serious mistakes.

One of BMA's largest detractors loadly *****ed and whined for a couple of years and after everything was debugged it came down to a miswire on his part. He never owned up to it, he never retracted his accusations, in fact he's still in there *****ing.

On a gen 3 there are about 200 wire terminations required to install the unit. There are positioning issues for each component. The harnessing issues are extremely complex, power in one harness, signals in another, radio stuff in another. The grounds are not common and the "commons" are not grounds and neither are the returns. A glass airframe is a challenge because you have twice th eopportunity to screw up. In a metal airframe you have this huge buss bar called the airframe, in a glass one you have to run a wire in every case as a ground, common or return. Bub Nuckols stuff works great with your science fair Discovery Electricity set, its meaningless with digital electronics.

BMA offered custom installation service to avoid these issues where some guy from the Vietnam era stationed in Okinawa was jonesing for his Sansui stereo receiver, you remember the ones bristling with knobs and switches so he goes and lays out his dream panel with B-52 technology, he want his COM, Xponder and Audio to each have an ON/OF switch, then another switch to switch on the COM, Xponder, and audio panel switches etc..yes, switches to control switches not to mention dual busses and cross and dual feeds and their switching schemes... if these jokers want a hobby decifering flipping switches then they should take up model railroading but the cockpit is no place for the fetishistic nonsense. Most of these guys can't figure out how to turn a radio on in the hanger without a logic diagram, how do you think its going to go for them in the air?

..what were we talking about anyway?

Ranting Tammy Tangent signing off

[Wayne Hicks]

I've been following EFII (thanx, Chrissi) development since 2001.

 

(1) I stand by my statement that manufacturers have had their shair of problems and complainers. And yes, I do include GRT in that mix. They still get complaints too. Most of these user lists have archives. (hint.)

 

(2) As for "saying everybody wants G1000 performance but are just to cheap to buy it is kind of a slap," it's not everyone. It's only the everyones doing the complaining (on the BMA website discussion board). Go check it out. There are alot of people asking for the moon over there. None ever offer to pay more.

 

(3) I've watched Wright's EFIS progress for many years. If I recall correctly, he's flying an older generation EFIS One. Most of his issues are trying to get his older box to do what the newer boxes will do (or are supposed to do). He's tiring of being a beta tester. He's been testing the regressive software mods that BMA is developing to try and get the older boxes to perform better. I haven't talked to Steve recently. (I've been somewhat busy.) Has he changed out to Gen 4?

 

(4) I'm not a fan of BMA or anyone else's experimental EFIS. I was only reporting what i know to be the issues with BMA.

[rviglierchio]

Thanks Wayne, for putting this in perspective. I'll pass on the great "deal" I found on a Gen 3.

Chrissi, what I don't understand is the need for 200 conections in light of this from ACS: "Just hook up Pitot and Static lines, install the included GPS antenna and magnetometer, add 9-32 volts and away you go.

Sounds like they are fooling somebody!"

Thank you all for help in making the decision. Back to filling and sanding.....

[TMann]

To Chrissi's point:

Save the glass panel for last.

To put it in perspective, how impressive is your 2 year old laptop?

[Cozy Girrrl]

"Just hook up Pitot and Static lines, install the included GPS antenna and magnetometer, add 9-32 volts and away you go.

That will give you basic six pack function plus GPS, so its true. For everything else get out your crimpers.

Wayne, Steves new unit is a gen 4, he likes it a lot.

If we had the $$$ we'd upgrade.

...Chrissi

[Edge 513]

Wayne, Steves new unit is a gen 4, he likes it a lot.

 

...Chrissi

Thats great news for everybody...a good report.

Wayne, is the Gen 4 pretty much bugless?

[Wayne Hicks]

Nope.......

[Marc Zeitlin]

Thats great news for everybody...a good report.

Wayne, is the Gen 4 pretty much bugless?

Having flown with Steve in his airplane at RR this year, I had a medium depth discussion with him regarding the unit in his plane. He's been an RCH away from giving up on it a number of times, and it continues to have bugs and issues. They're not in the basic functionality, but are <both major and minor> stuff that's claimed to work and doesnt, and causes operational issues in the cockpit. Some are intermittent, some are continual.

 

Steve's issues are NOT with installation - he's had his unit inspected at the factory, and IIRC, they assisted with the installation and wiring.

 

He's still hoping that they will get these things working (eventually), but "resigned" is the word I'd use to describe his attitude.

 

It's a beautiful unit (he's got the large one, as well as a smaller backup one), and if it did what was claimed it would be worth the $$$, but based on Steve's feedback to me, I wouldn't go near it with a 10 foot pole - maybe in a few more years...

 

That's MY opinion, not Steve's. He gave up on the P-Mag, while I've stuck with them - to each his own.

 

As has been pointed out, the Grand Rapids Units that Chris Esselstyn has in his aircraft (which I flew in with Chris at OSH) has no such issues, according to Chris - it does what's claimed.

 

While I do not have the Dynon EFIS, I do have a Dynon EMS. It also does what they claim it does, with one niggling issue that probably involves me having a wrong resistor value for the tach reading - my issue, not theirs. I monitor the Dynon on-line forum, and the type of pissing and moaning about either the EFIS or EMS systems that goes on on the BMA forum does not exist there. There are questions and complaints, but they NEVER involve something that Dynon claims there system does, but actually doesn't. They're almost always requests for functional enhancements or explanations of how to make a certain thing work, which does, after the fix is tried.

 

All that said, the GR and Dynon EFII (as well as most of the rest) have less functionality than the BMA (and less claimed functionality). Pick your poison.

[WileEZ]

What is your opinion on the MGL Avionics EFISes?

http://www.mglavionics.com/

 

I like the look and price of the new Odyssey. About $6K.

 

I'm especially taken by the monochrome Stratomaster. A complete system for about $2K!

 

I'm a trained electronic tech, so installing this myself doesn't bother me.

[Wayne Hicks]

Correction: I was told that Steve Wright moved up to an EFIS One Gen 4 unit. His Lite is a Gen 3 or 4.