Can they survive outside in the sun?

[rogerbacon]

Can Long-EZs and other types of planes with the same construction survive outside in the hot South Florida sun or will they fall apart after a couple of months? I know the paint has to have an UV protective layer but is that enough?

[rogerbacon]

I guess this forum isn't very active. Over a month and no one knows the answer?

[Waiter]

Yes.

 

There are many EZs that have been parked outside for years.

 

You may want to invest in a good quality cover.

 

Waiter

[Edge 513]

I guess this forum isn't very active. Over a month and no one knows the answer?

I think it was the way you put the question. Pretty absurd given several hundred have been flying since the early eighties, and are parked in the sun for years regularly.

A quick search of archives about various questions can answer most questions without sounding ridiculous.

I'm not trying to be fussy..just making an observation.

[Waiter]

I guess this forum isn't very active. Over a month and no one knows the answer?

Sometimes, you'll get lost in the activity. If there was a hot topic bouncing back and forth, your question probably doesn't make it to the top of the heap

 

Anyway, If that happens again, step up a re-ask, kind of like what you did.

 

(Is that a real word, "re-ask")

 

Waiter

[rogerbacon]

Thank you very much for the information. The reason I asked is that there was a Long_EZ in South florida that didn't have the UV protection and it fell apart after a few months. The surface of the wings separated from teh fiberglass and it was a real mess. I just wanted to be sure that the lack of UV protection was the only reason and that proper paint would have prevented that from happening.

[longezdave]

You've got me curious. What do you mean exactly by "....fell apart after a few months"? I would be surprised if it was more than just the paint or the paint and primer that failed. Did it really fall apart? Any chance you have pictures?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

[rogerbacon]

You've got me curious. What do you mean exactly by "....fell apart after a few months"? I would be surprised if it was more than just the paint or the paint and primer that failed. Did it really fall apart? Any chance you have pictures?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

Not being an expert on composite construction my terminology may be totally wrong... Basically about 1/8" thick of material all over the wings was cracking off and the area under it was fiberglass. The fiberglass was not "de-bonding" though, according to a long-ez builder. This was years ago and I was taking flight training at the airport at the time. The plane looked really cool and that is why I asked about it and what was happening to it.

[TMann]

It sounds more like some sort of primer/filler failure rather than a failure of the structure itself. In other words: Bad prep work.

[longezdave]

It sounds more like some sort of primer/filler failure rather than a failure of the structure itself. In other words: Bad prep work.

I agree. It would disturb me if the fiberglass was actually breaking down. That is if it was breaking down very fast. I'm told that it will in time. That the epoxy will. It will sublimate and leave the bare fiberglass fibers. Does anyone know that to be a fact or not? I don't want to test with my plane.

[TMann]

A guy in my EAA chapter just bought an Epic which is a composite (on a grand scale) to replace his LanceAir (another composite.) We are talking 1mil+.

I don't think we have anything to worry about.

[KeithO]

There are other, more significant problems with parking a bird outside in the elements for years. The cockpit will get way up there in temp from the absorbed solar heating. Paint and composite and seat cushions will outgas coating the inside of the canopy with a hard to remove film. The canopy will craze and crack from the thermal stress. You will have a nice gritty grinding paste covering the outside of the airframe at all times. The engine will attract condensation from sitting out and the daily temperature and humidity swings. Dissimilar metallic joints will rapidly corrode (in relative terms). UV will bleach out everything it can get to.

 

An airplane is never really cheap, so leaving it out is a pretty desperate thing to do, which is something more commonly seen at very busy hubs where hanger space is basically unaffordable or unavailable. Even the "roof only" hangers are a substantially better deal than no hanger at all.

 

Of course I have a natural aversion for large collections of people (cities) so this is less of a problem where I live. In fact, the demand for hanger space is so low that many of the former hangers at Reynolds field in Jackson are now warehouses for local businesses.

[RGlos]

Keith

 

Where did you get your information?

I have parked outside now in the Chicago area since 1986.

 

Rain, snow, temps from -14 to 104f

Heat build up in the canopy? Never measured it.

Cracked and crazed canopy, zero evidence.

Outgasing on the inside with a thin film. Must be every thin.

Metallic joints corroding, they should but hav'nt yet.

Gritty paste, nothing the rain doesn't wash off or a good coat of wax can take care of.

 

I'm on a limited budget being retired so I try to keep things as nice as I can all things considered. A months rent on hangars would buy me nearly 80 gallons of fuel.

 

That being said check out the pictures and you can still see a little shine on the paint.

[Waiter]

A good cover will prevent most of the problems described.

 

I think the biggest problem results form your aircraft being on constant "Static Display".

 

Several years ago, I used my EZ to commute daily between San Jose and Fresno. I would invariably return to my plane in the afternoon to find finger prints on the canopy and airframe. (Can you say French Fries).

 

Waiter

[Marc Zeitlin]

There are other, more significant problems with parking a bird outside in the elements for years....

While everything you write is true, all the effects are pretty trivial to mitigate. A canopy cover will keep most of the heat/UV out of the cockpit and protect the acrylic - paint/lubrication of metal parts prevents corrosion, the amount of grit depends on where you are, and temperature/humidity swings are no different inside an unheated hangar than they are outside.

 

My car is made out of metal, and it lives it's whole life outside, without a cover or me giving the slightest crap about it. I don't see parts falling off on a regular basis, and I NEVER pre-drive my car like I preflight my plane.

 

An airplane is never really cheap, so leaving it out is a pretty desperate thing to do...

Hardly. Even if the cost differential of hangar vs. tiedown is relatively small, the cost increase of leaving the plane out is also pretty small (repaint every 15 years instead of every 25, etc.) so it can be a no-brainer from a cost standpoint to tiedown instead of hangar if you don't have a lot of cash.

 

I tied my plane down for 3.5 years outside in MA - rain, snow, sun, heat, cold, etc. No issues, with a cover from nose to tail on the fuselage. I've got it in a hangar now in CA in what amounts to much more benign weather, but I wanted a protected place to work on the plane and keep my tools/equipment - I'm protecting ME, not the plane.

 

... Basically about 1/8" thick of material all over the wings was cracking off and the area under it was fiberglass....

This is indicative of cosmetic filler being applied too thick and poorly. It has nothing to do with deterioration from sitting outside in UV, and everything to do with poor workmanship. Composite airplanes can live essentially forever outside as long as they've got appropriate paint on them.

[Waiter]

Composite airplanes can live essentially forever outside as long as they've got appropriate paint on them.

As Marc said.

 

If you ever get a chance to get out to one of the aircraft "Bone Yards" you'll find many "fiberglass" parts, radomes, fairings, etc, that have been sitting in the Arizona sun for years, some dating back to the 1930s and 40s, and still as good as the day they wee manufactured.

 

Waiter

[KeithO]

While a consciencious person may do reasonably well trying to keep his equipment in good shape when the means prevent under cover storage, there is no doubt that a lot more work is required compared to what will be needed if properly protected.

 

One example was a honda motorcycle I had when I was younger and really poor. I bought it from a company who had a fleet of them and they were always parked inside at night and when the riders were not out making deliveries they were shining up the chrome. Well, I didn't have covered parking for the next 4 years. The wind blew constantly, so the thing was covered in dust anytime 5 minutes or more after it got a wash. Washing the plexiglass fairing was a major problem, since it was basically impossible to flush off all the grit before going over it cautiously with a sponge and wash/wax to try to get it clean. I was living in a marine environment, so there was salt around pretty much every day of the year and frequent morning dew that had to be cleared to see through the fairing.

 

Well, after the 4 years, the thing looked like crap. The chrome plating would exacerbate corrosion as soon as there was the tiniest break in the surface. The aluminum forks and motor had developed a blotchy appearance with the color darker on the least oxidized areas and lightest in the most oxidised areas. The chromed wheels were a mess of chrome with spider web veins of brown rust. The fairing had swirls upon swirls of fine scratches that had developed from repeated washings, even though I really tried to avoid causing any damage in the first place.

 

My comments regarding cockpit temperature come from present experience in the midwest. Even though I use a reflective shield in the windshield in summer, I still have the outgassing problem on my chevy's interior and it is a ***** cleaning off the deposit on the inside of the windshield. The coating forms a light haze that is a minor annoyance during the day but a major annoyance during damp conditions, since condensation appears to be triggered by the coating on the inside of the windshield and is far more problematic when present than after it is cleaned. I have a cloth interior that has not been treated with any kind of chemicals (other than what they do at the factory).

 

The comments regarding the windshield come from observations of the training fleet at JCC flight school and my late boss's Bonanza. I have personally found the poor condition of windshields on $70-150k airplanes to be totally inexcusable. I have to say I have not seen this on experimentals and maybe that is because a builder would just as soon replace the canopy if it was in bad shape, but owners baulk at the cost of having this done on their certified airplanes. At flight schools, students are typically not allowed to touch the windshield, for fear that they would damage it (which may be justifiable in many cases).

 

I'll be honest and say that I don't possess an airplane at present, but I certainly would want to keep one indoors when I can afford one. In Europe where hanger space is a virtual impossibility many folks use custom built trailers and have folding wings for this exact reason. I'm not by any means suggesting that anything is going to fall apart, but something parked outside will get its usefull life "used up" faster than if better protected. Now if one realistically has 20 years of active life ahead of you and a "new" airframe and priorities elsewhere, then that is what works for you.

 

Where did you get your information?

I have parked outside now in the Chicago area since 1986.

 

Rain, snow, temps from -14 to 104f

Heat build up in the canopy? Never measured it.

Cracked and crazed canopy, zero evidence.

Outgasing on the inside with a thin film. Must be every thin.

Metallic joints corroding, they should but hav'nt yet.

Gritty paste, nothing the rain doesn't wash off or a good coat of wax can take care of.

 

I'm on a limited budget being retired so I try to keep things as nice as I can all things considered. A months rent on hangars would buy me nearly 80 gallons of fuel.

 

That being said check out the pictures and you can still see a little shine on the paint.

[TMann]

........ just a side note:

It seems that everyone has concerns about composites (even though Scaled has flown then into space) and little concerns about aluminum. You may have noticed all of the WWI War Birds at the air shows. Many of those planes were rescued from the boneyards after years of exposure.

Missing from this were the Japanese Zeros. The aluminum alloy that the main spar was made from oxidized over time and the wings literally fell off as they sat parked on the ground.

 

The point is that any material done poorly will have problems.