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How to heat a freezing workshop?


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#41 Jon Matcho

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 11:40 AM

While working on finishing up the insulation of my garage doors last night, I couldn't help but notice a hole in the sheetrock on one of my garage walls. After further examination I found that all walls are completely hollow.

I had assumed that they were at least filled with cheap batting insulation. I'm now wondering what sort of wintertime temperatures I can expect. Granted it's not as bad as a barn -- there is sheetrock -- but it's not as good as I had assumed.

Knowing that I am definitely going to remodel and rewire my garage next year (or the year after; you know how these things go), any suggestions for interim insulation options:
  • seal cracks
  • cut slots in walls, run batting through, and replace slots
  • glue cheap foam to walls
  • apply cheap foil to walls
  • ???
All of this would be throwaway (and so needs to be cheap), as I am definitely going to tear down ALL of the sheetrock to properly insulate. I have a bathroom overhead which freezes each winter.

Jon Matcho :busy:
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#42 Wayne Hicks

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 01:41 PM

You guys I swear, you can be sooo silly with your comfortable working environments. Count your blessings! Those of us who have to finish our planes at airports know all that's necessary is: (1) Keep the cup of epoxy and the layup(s) warm. I use a heat gun for this. (2) Keep the curing surface(s) warm. I use a heat tent for this. Layups cure overnight. (3) Keep the humans above survival temperature. I have a Big Kahuna these days, but I don't run it all the time. Only enough to keep me at or above 40 degrees. And I consider the Big Kahuna a luxury! Before the Big Kahuna, I used the heat gun to heat up my hands. My long johns, jacket, and wool cap did the rest. No reason to heat the entire workshop to above 70. No reason at'tall. Ta Da now, and tootleloo!
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#43 Neverquit

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 04:30 PM

How does this heater get away with no carbon monoxide gasses? Jon, good to see you finally making progress.

#44 Jon Matcho

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 05:29 PM

How does this heater get away with no carbon monoxide gasses?

From the www.heatershop.com Web site, they say:

What makes a gas heating product vent free ?
A precision engineered burner (made in the USA - these are not cheap imports) that provides 99% fuel efficiency. This is accomplished by advanced air/gas mixing chambers, burner designs, and many other features all developed to produce the cleanest, most complete possible burn.

These units do not require a vent or chimney to exhaust the normally unused by-products of combustion found in vented heaters.

My unit actually comes with an O2 depletion sensor, which shuts down the burn if Ox drops from 20% to 18%. I think that too much CO cannot harm you provided that there's sufficient oxygen, which I would guess is counting on the room being some level of drafty.

I also noticed they have a $59 overhead radiant electric heater that I might look into.

Jon, good to see you finally making progress.

Yes, progress feels good. I just need to follow through to a point where I can make building progress (meaning NOT to fully insulate this winter).

You guys I swear, you can be sooo silly with your comfortable working environments.
...
No reason to heat the entire workshop to above 70.

Wayne, I admire your ruggedness, but one thing I have found is most underestimated is the importance of a comfortable and local shop. While you are indeed a marvel to the contrary, I am a firm believer that the shop itself is one of your most important tools. If it's comfortable in the shop, you're going to be in there more often AND having fun.

Seriously, I have heard by many that they would have built longer at home if they could. So that is what I'm setting up to do -- year-round building of ALL the parts, with only final assembly and flight testing at the airport.

I hate cold feet.

Jon Matcho :busy:
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#45 Wayne Hicks

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 09:45 PM

I would have built the entire plane at home if I could. A shop at home is a great thing. And my response was tongue-in-cheek to get you goat, John. But let's not give newbies the idea that a full blown shop is required to build these planes. Some people spend a year or two putting a shop together. Okay, great. A few people built their planes in two years. (I unfortunately am not one of them.) I started with a solid core door held up by two saw horses, a ginzu knife, and all my garage crap piled to one side. The garage got "organized" around Chapter 10.
Wayne Hicks
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http://www.ez.org/pages/waynehicks

#46 Wayne Hicks

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 09:50 PM

Oh... the Big Kahuna? Oh yeah, it puts out alot of CO. I only run it for a little at a time, to keep me at survival temperature. The Big Kahuna can very easily make the hangar feel like the tropics, but I don't like the headaches and I don't like paying for all that kerosene. I never used a kerosene heater when I was at home in the garage. Only electric space heaters.
Wayne Hicks
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#47 Jon Matcho

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 10:27 PM

And my response was tongue-in-cheek to get you goat, John.

How come I'm not allowed to get other's goats?

But let's not give newbies the idea that a full blown shop is required to build these planes. Some people spend a year or two putting a shop together. Okay, great. A few people built their planes in two years.

I give credit to Jerry Schneider for pushing me over the edge to start building. Only after building my bulkheads and running out of room due to an insufficient shop did I realize a series of things that I should have done prior, regardless of building an airplane or not:
  • Buy a house -- make sure you have a shed (only now do I actually feel like I own this house)
  • Factor a lawn service into your life plan (or forgo a level or two of lawn beautification)
  • Have some room for building
  • Don't buy a house w/10 years of unnoticed water damage without having that fixed first
Justifying my situation, I'm glad I started and actually stopped. I meant to proceed this way so I would have the experience of a poor shop setup. Yeah, that's the ticket...

I started with a solid core door held up by two saw horses, a ginzu knife, and all my garage crap piled to one side.

My Chapter 4 table was an 8' executive conference table covered in plastic with a 4'x4' piece of birch on it.

The garage got "organized" around Chapter 10.

Only difference is that mine will get usable in Chapter 5. Organized and fully functional will likely have to wait for another year.

I want my goat back.

Jon Matcho :busy:
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#48 Len Evansic

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 11:29 PM

I think that too much CO cannot harm you provided that there's sufficient oxygen...

Whoa Jon! Don't fall victim to this misconception.

The danger of CO is that it blocks oxygen from being absorbed. You could asphyxiate in a 30% oxygen room if you had just a fraction of a percent of CO. Please have two CO monitors with you in your shop. One about a foot off of the floor, away from drafts and the heaters, and one on the opposite side of the room. That way if one of the detectors is malfunctioning (low battery) you still should have sufficient warning to get out and get the shop ventilated.

-- Len

#49 Jon Matcho

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 07:59 AM

The danger of CO is that it blocks oxygen from being absorbed. You could asphyxiate in a 30% oxygen room if you had just a fraction of a percent of CO.

Thanks for the warning Len, I will definitely keep this under consideration and pick up a CO monitor or two.

Jon Matcho :busy:
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#50 Carlos Fernandez

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 12:36 PM

I started with a solid core door held up by two saw horses, a ginzu knife, and all my garage crap piled to one side. The garage got "organized" around Chapter 10.


Wayne, I think I have your garage now. :) (aerocanard.kal-soft.com picture 22).

I couldn't wait anymore the mess was getting to me. I still have the garage but it is a little :o neater now...not much though :D .

A big, warm, well lit shop is ideal for sure, but until then I'm building what I can now. :)
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#51 Jack Fairchild

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 01:05 PM

[list]
[*]seal cracks

This is a must do.

[*]cut slots in walls, run batting through, and replace slots

Are you talking vertical slots? This would be difficult to repair. If we are only talking temporary here. I would cut a horizontal slot at the top of each stud bay and blow in insulation. The problem with that stuff is its low "R" value and it settles.

[*]glue cheap foam to walls

Please do not leave any highly flammable materials exposed.

[*]apply cheap foil to walls

Not sure about this one.
If you are trully going to rehab your shop from top down, then just bear with it untill then.
Jack Fairchild

#52 Jon Matcho

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 02:33 PM

Are you talking vertical slots?

Horizontal slots so I could pull batting insulation down, but I've decided not to do this.

...blow in insulation. The problem with that stuff is its low "R" value and it settles.

It's also a mess if you ever need to open up the wall for whatever reason.

Please do not leave any highly flammable materials exposed.

Urethane based foams burn like wood (polyisocyanulate), which is what I've used on my garage doors. I've read that some other foams will melt into blobs and actually accelerate a fire.

If you are trully going to rehab your shop from top down, then just bear with it untill then.

Yep, I'm just going to seal things up, move the crap into the shed, and get busy while I plan the design of my "real" shop.

I have to catch up to Carlos and others that are leaving me in the dust! :irked:

Jon Matcho :busy:
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#53 Carlos Fernandez

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 10:48 PM

I have to catch up to Carlos and others that are leaving me in the dust! :irked:


Don't worry Jon, my garage is now cold, it's snowing outside and the build has moved inside (don't tell my wife I laying glass in our finished basement).

I'm working on the small stuff like the seat back brace and heat duct. :P

Do you have any pics of your shop improvements? I would like to be able to continue building up the fuse sides but it's cold out there.

I hope you can get back to building soon! :)
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#54 Jon Matcho

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 01:47 PM

Do you have any pics of your shop improvements?

I'll try to take some this weekend. I want to make some overhead shelves in my shed so I can remove ladders and stuff.

I hope you can get back to building soon! :)

Me too. I'm starting to realize that setting up shop is a substantial project, and one that would benefit from some project management. Taking some advice from Mark Beduhn, I've started to identify the critical path I have to follow to get things done. Otherwise it just seems overwhelming.

Jon Matcho :busy:
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#55 Carlos Fernandez

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 11:58 AM

I couldn't stand it anymore. :irked: Last night I built a room in the two car garage out of aluminum lined foam board so I can work during the winter months. The room is about 10' x 10'. The walls (foam board) are hinged at the ceiling so they can be moved up and out of the way when the snow is falling outside and I want to park the car inside. I know it's not a big space but it is better than not being able to build at all during the winter months. I have a small oil filled heater that keeps the room at 55 on the lowest setting and have yet to see what it will take to get 70 degrees. I'm excited... :D
Carlos Fernandez
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#56 Jon Matcho

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 12:33 PM

Cool! I made a breakthrough last night as well, managing to get a friend over to help me make a loft in my new shed using 2x6s. I'm now ready to empty out all the non-essential (non-canard) stuff out of the garage/shop and into the shed. That insulation is good stuff. I put the 2" type on my garage doors and sealed the edges for drafts. It made a HUGE improvement. with the heater I have I managed to get the temperature up to 64 degrees F while it was 15F outside! However, I do wonder if that's as warm as I'll get it, so I've been thinking to drape plastic down half of the garage to keep things toasty! Might even let my wife put her car in the garage after that (on the cold side of course). ;) I'll try to get a good set of pics and Web update after this weekend's work.

Jon Matcho :busy:
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#57 Terry Schubert

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 12:11 PM

I put this 30 gallon double drum heater together in about 1982 and I don't see any signs of it rusting through or doing anything bad.  The garage is 26' x 26' with a 11' ceiling and I can get most any temp I want in there.  I ran it up to 110 for 6-8 hrs to sort of post cure my wings but I'd not do that again.  The walls felt hot!  They probably should have at 110 but I was really nervous about it.
 
The 55 gal drums are monsters and good for heating cattle barns, I'd think.
 
For more even heating, I have a 20" box fan on low to circulate the heat.  Using the double drum really improves the efficiency and lowers the stack temp.  I run the triple wall stainless chimney at 400F when staring the first fire and warming the place.  After that initial demand, the chimney temp for maintenance runs about 250 on a zero day - depends on insulation & leaks.  I'd not make a habit of running pine as the resin accumulates and you have to clean the chimney out   to prevent a chimney fire.  400f temps seem to keep the resin hot enough that it leaves the chimney before it is cool enough to deposit on the chimney ID.  If you are not familiar with running a wood stove you might want to read up on all that before spending money on something that you do have to fiddle with occasionally.  It isn't like natural gas where you set it and forget it.  There is VERY little ash to ever clean out.  I used to clean it out every summer and there was maybe 2-3 5 gal buckets of fine ash by then.  It is good to leave at least 1" of ash in the bottom as it insulates the drum from the heat , they say?? 
 
Pic is in my dirty area and I'm starting to contour a cowl mod.  - very dusty & dirty!

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#58 magnum

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 12:23 PM

Boy I remember those days when I lived up north. Using up your energy to stay warm when you wanted to focus on getting something done. Ya have to do what you have to do. Good luck on those cowls.

~~~tg~~~


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