CRASH....1045 am pst (cozy)

[steve]

was at the airport and got a chance to talk to the pilot of the now not so hot cozy. i didn't see him go in but was by the radio when the call when't out to clear the run way.witnesses saw a slow climb and didn't think he was going to make it, he then turned back to the runway they said.(there was a plane taking off so it looked like he

opted to fly down wind lag and get a shot at the north end,he turned base sharp,nose droped they said. he over shot final,turn back to field and carrer landed it on the pavment,and rolled off on to the grass(i guess there's grass down there)a cfi said. they closed the run way but no debrie was found. 1 hour later after my ground test(72%)i saw him driving away with plane in toe so i stoped him and he said he was ok. he let me get some pic. of him and the plane.i'll up load them shortly. he said after the crash 2 weeks ago(nose gear not out all the way}the engine was running hot so he rejeted it.after take off it ran badly."i guess it was to rich" he said. Iasked him if the taxi test was ok,but he didn't do one.

[Cozy1200]

What airport and who was the pilot?

 

Inquiring minds want to know

[steve]

u know he told me but i forgot,and the port was wa. state bremertom (pwt)

[steve]

cozy4@www.msnusers.com i just got 3or 4 of them,but hes the one in the sweater.mabe in page 4

[John Slade]

That looks like an email address, Steve. The correct URL is http://msnusers.com/cozy4

 

Click on pictures. Select page3

 

That looks like a metal prop and some sort of automotive engine.

 

Looks like the N number is N200TZ which is a VariEZ registered

to MENEFEE, MICHAEL O of Silverdale, WA.

 

Not a Cozy.

 

The owner doesn't look very happy, understandably.

[Dave Clifford]

0643jpg: Is THAT a Makita drill motor he's using for a front strut gear retractor??

 

http://msnusers.com/cozy4/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31

[Jon Matcho]

>Is THAT a Makita drill motor he's using for a front strut gear retractor??

 

Two possibilities:

 

a) Its clutch slipped out of "drill mode", or

b) The rechargeable batteries ran out

 

(joking)

 

I'm glad he's okay, but that picture should never have come to pass.

[chuckthedog]

By the looks of gear. It would not have mattered if the nose gear was welded in the down position. As for the makita. I have seen a lot worse that people market and sell for a lot more than the price of a Makita drill. The pictures show the nose gear was down. This poor man is lucky the plane took the worst of it. I think this should be taken as to the strength of the plane, and its ability to keep the people inside alive. My hart goese out to him for his loss. I bet he wishes the people with the cameras would just go away and leave him alone.

[Jon Matcho]

Sorry Chuck, but black electrical tape has no place holding mechanical parts together in an airplane. You have to use duct tape at the least.

 

No offense intended to anyone.

[chuckthedog]

100% correct. The 200 mph stuff min.

[Wayne Hicks]

You guys need to be careful when criticizing this fellow's noze-lift. Before the advent of the linear actuator noze lifts, people used all kinds of drills, clutches, and motors to deploy/retract the nose gear. You CSA newsletter subscribers know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

None were designed to lift the plane up. The pilot would manually pick up the nose, then deploy the gear with no weight on it. Okay, okay...there was one early version where you hit the deploy switch first, then picked up the plane to assist the noze lift.

 

Don't shirk the history. It's how we get there tomorrow.

 

...Wayne Hicks

[chuckthedog]

I am not knocking it! In fact. I have had my old retract strip the teeth by only half extending the gear to move my plane. EZ fix. The other time when after landing on bumpy taxeway the crank backed off "not locked down" Stripped again. Unknown to me at the time I was being vidio taped. I got to watch it again, and again at the next EAA chapter meeting. "RED FACE" I now highly recomend the EZ-Noselift. If you have to move your plane solo or any other reason. BTW The Strong pitch trim uses a electric screw driver motor head. I also recomend this upgrade. Like starten a Jap bike. JUST PUSH THE BUTTON!

PS: used Ken brock Nose retract with shock strut, and Pitch trim Hardware for sale. He He.

[Jim Sower]

Originally posted by steve

... i didn't see him go in but was by the radio when the call when't out to clear the run way ... witnesses saw a slow climb and didn't think he was going to make it ... he then turned back to the runway they said ... there was a plane taking off so it looked like he opted to fly down wind lag ...

 

Not sure exactly what you mean by "...call when't out to clear the run way ..." but if HE called to clear the runway, one has to wonder what another airplane was doing launching in the middle of his emergency

 

... turned base sharp,nose droped they said. he over shot final,turn back to field and carrer landed it on the pavment,and rolled off on to the grass ...

If it was me and the "call to clear the runway" actually happened as described, I would be looking for five minutes alone with the ##($^ who launched into me after I announced I had problems and was coming back

 

... the engine was running hot so he rejeted it ....

Don't know if you mean "rejetted" (like the carb) or "rejected" like in aborted the hop.

 

... after take off it ran badly."i guess it was to rich" he said ...

Has he no mixture control?

 

... Iasked him if the taxi test was ok,but he didn't do one...

Who is this guy??

[Wayne Hicks]

Sorry to Chuckthedog. It's unfortunate that my last reply appears immediately following your last reply. That makes it look like I'm responding to you instead of addressing the thread as a whole.

 

...Wayne

[Jon Matcho]

Wayne, I did indeed criticize this good fellow's nose lift without any understanding whatsoever of the history by which experimental electric nose lifts came to be. For that I admit my ignorance.

 

No offense intended to anyone (again).

 

With that being said, and upon further review of Steve's report, I am now fairly certain that:

 

1) The most recent crash happened at 10:45 AM PST on some date. This was the 2nd crash!

2) There was a first incident/crash 2 weeks prior caused by "nose gear not out all the way"

3) Both the gear and engine were damaged in the first incident

4) The engine was serviced (at least "rejetted")

5) The front landing gear had to be repaired (I assume)

6) Another pilot might have ignored the "clear runway" call

7) Nobody died! In fact, the fellow appears in good health, albeit a mixture of embarrassed and pissed.

 

...and now some things that are harder to say (no offense please):

 

8) The engine wasn't serviced enough

9) The front landing gear might not have been repaired enough (who knows given the carrier landing condition)

10) Pilot error cannot be ruled out

 

I feel it is our duty to look at these incidents closely, to identify how to avoid when we're in the left seat. Especially since nobody died, this should even be permitted socially.

 

I specifically poked at the black electrical tape on the Makita drill. In hindsight, I would say that might have been just a small sampling of a larger set of problems. I am only speculating; trying to find out how this sort of thing happens, so that I NEVER crash, and hopefully nobody here ever will.

 

Even John Denver's death was critiqued to the point of "pilot error". Similar discussions happened for the recent Hawaii-to-mainland crash, and the more recent Long Island crash. I personally gained a wealth of knowledge reading about those crashes.

 

What will be accomplished if we treat all of these "incidents" in the same fashion as a funeral, where nobody is allowed to ask "what was he thinking?!"

 

With all due respect, and no offense intended or directed at anyone, I submit this only to gain insight into how to avoid Death By Aviation (or even just garden variety embarrassment).

[John Slade]

I'd agree with you, Jon, that we should openly discuss these incidents in the light of what can be learned from them.

 

Having said that, I am, however, seriously bothered by the many posts I've seen right after accidents (even those where death has occured) which speculate on this that and the other with no actual information to back them up.

 

I guess there's a subtle difference between theorizing and speculating. Many times assumptions and judgments are made that are simply not based in known fact, and are totally unfair on the poor sod that's either just lost his airplane, or worse. The recent LI crash comes to mind. In this case one so-called EZ expert, with no direct knowledge of the facts, even went as far as to make a nasty phone call to the pilot. I'll avoid this particular bigot if ever I have the misfortune to meet him. I won't go a far as to name the creep, but I'll give you a clue. He's named after a beer.

 

Whether it's John Denver, this guy with his broken VariEZ, Rich Hughes, Jean-Patrick (both of whom I've met personally and consider to be excellent people) or anyone else who has a misfortunate incident, lets show a bit of respect for the fact that they had "the dream" too and have suffered serious hardship and loss.

 

THEN lets learn what we can from whatever FACTS we can glean.

 

[END OF RANT]

Inspection on Tuesday.

[Spodman]

Assumptions are easy to make, especially those that make it easy to rationalise that the other guy was doing something you wouldn't, which makes you safe.

 

The reprints from the old CP newsletter on the EZ Squadron site tread this line very well. Reported facts are presented, and only expanded upon where additional facts are know from experience. Even more value from the reports from those who start "Up til this mornin' I had a Long-Ez".

 

On the other hand tub-thumping with your favorite rant or just good ol' gossiping is fun too.

 

Does anybody know what the engine is? All I can see is pipes.

[Jon Matcho]

I might make the analogy that this feels like I am attending a funeral, but I have no hard evidence to back up such a feeling.

 

If any member of our fraternal order of canardians cannot be comfortable posting on important matters, the learning stops, and topics with great potential suffer a premature death.

[steve]

Does anybody know what the engine is? All I can see is pipes. [/b]

 

it was a subaru "4 cyl turbo"..the owner said

[Jim Sower]

Originally posted by John Slade

I'd agree with you, Jon, that we should openly discuss these incidents in the light of what can be learned from them.

 

Having said that, I am, however, seriously bothered by the many posts I've seen right after accidents (even those where death has occured) which speculate on this that and the other with no actual information to back them up.

Where might one come up with some facts? The Cozy in Hawaii last fall, the Cozy on Long Island last winter, this latest [not] Cozy, rumored to be Vari-EZ last week. The preliminary "rumors" were published, a few more rumors from "better sources" but not a whole lot of reliable information so far that I have seen.

 

When can we expect some more facts? From whence?

[John Slade]

Where might one come up with some facts?

How about the Pilot?

I spoke to Rich Hughes at length about what happened, and posted a summary.

 

In the case of Hawaii we got a post from the pilot.

 

In the absence of first hand data from the pilot or a direct observer we can only guess until the FAA/NTSB publish something, and often even then.

but not a whole lot of reliable information so far that I have seen.

I agree. In most cases there isn't enough (or even any) reliable information, especially early on. So what do you want to do - guess? speculate? Make ASSumptions?

This is when I suggest that it's best to STFU until there IS some.

[Jon Matcho]

Originally posted by John Slade

In the absence of first hand data from the pilot or a direct observer we can only guess until the FAA/NTSB publish something...

We have facts -- from Steve, who was able to interview the pilot and make a report.

...STFU...

I'd like to remind everyone that this is a discussion forum.

[Bill Norton]

I'd like to remind everyone that this is a discussion forum. [/b]

 

Yes but there is a difference between informed, sensitive discussion and - speculation without foundation based on little fact and often very limited experience.

 

In my opinion John Slade's comments are very fair and correct, it is very easy to leap to conclusions.

 

If you have been around for awhile just search yourself and the close shaves you may have had.

 

 

Well this is my first post on this forum - guess it's back to the bunker now !

 

Bill Norton Cozy IV 1054

[John Slade]

Thanks for the support, Bill.

 

If I had a nickel for every uninformed reason I've heard for John Denver's death I could afford a Garmin 430.

[steve]

Originally posted by Bill Norton

Yes but there is a difference between informed, sensitive discussion and - speculation without foundation based on little fact and often very limited experience.

 

it is very easy to leap to conclusions.

 

Well i didn't mean to step on toes...if i hear of a crash, i need to wait to read the findings in the nt report,but intill then i wish i could find someone that saw it..or herd it or seen it fly over. i wanted to run over to the plane but i was on brake from my ground school,and further more,it was very scary to think that a fellow builder mite be hurt or worse, so i waited at the door and lissend for scraps of info as they walked by,and when i heard he was ok and the feild was clear i whent back in to the class room,but was sorry i dint run out and just get in the way, see, cus then i could have told u first hand how many times it rolled befor it stoped or the look of fear in his eyes.. Nope i just saw him in the parking lot and asked if it would be ok to photo and quote him on the cozy page.And i just typed in what he said. there was much more we talked about, woda cuda stuff. but i'm in no mood to juge,i need to learn, so i will just keep building ,and reading u all in hopes i can find my own answers, and if...we save just 1 cozy from this thread...Plz let it be mine..lol