Talk me out of a velocity...

[Aaron]

I'm still in the air I like the Cozy, but I visited a local Velocity project yesterday. I was impressed by the accessability the gull-wing doors gave.

 

I'm not making the decision until I sit in them both, but could any of you who have been in this spot before tell me how you came to your decision.

 

Note: I've been here long enough to know this subject brings up some sore feelings so if you would like to send your messages in private, please feel free to do so.

[Jerry Schneider]

The biggest reason for me was $$$$$.

I can get in the air, and look cool doing it for half the price.

[dust]

Well, from what I see the problems with the velocity are.

 

Speed, the sign on the velocity at oshkosh was 175 mph. The examples i have seen had things hanging out all over, biig step, three ram scoops, big external canard hinges.

 

Cost, they cost allot more

 

Time, they don't seem to take any less time. What i have found from talking to quite a few builders of many "kit" planes is that they get big parts from the factory and they take way more time to assemble than the moldless construstion that the cozy uses, i know, hard to believe, but true.

 

In order to put that gull door in you have to cut the longeron and when you do that you have to add allot of structure,(spelled weight). The talk i had with one builder on the gull wing door is that is was a really hard part of the plane to build. The cozy is composite construction, glass/foam/glass and the parts are very stable, when a part is cut from it it doesn't deform. Solid glass is not stable like this and deforms

 

It appears that the velocity is made from solid glass.

 

Go talk to finished builders and compare, my opinion is obviously jaded, although i really am trying not to be

[John Slade]

I'm jaded too, of course

But

I have to agree with all thats been said so far, plus add a little extra food for thought.......

 

What put me off the velocity was the center stick. I wouldn't want to let a passenger play with the stick if I couldn't follow through - and I like to let passengers get a feel for the stick.

 

It would be tough to do any real flight training with only one stick.

They may have fixed that now and gone to side sticks.

 

Best way to check out a velocity would be talk to my friend Jim Sower who's a Velocity owner / Cozy Dreamer and on this list - Jim where are you? Whats you're Balls To The Wall speed, Jim - 155? Whats you're fuel burn, Jim? 13? 14? Oh, and by the way, how's it going with that problem of getting the fuel to drain out of the tanks into the sump?

 

For hours of excellent entertainment, ask Jim about his experience with the gull wing door.

 

His starboard door recently departed the airplane at 400 ft on take off and made a dent in the port strake. Come on, Jim - tell us the story about you fighting off flying sectionals and other cockpit debris while trying to recover the pax headset before it went through the prop. Reaching across you're body with you're left hand, while flying the airplane with you're right (from the left seat). Dont forget to mention the bit about recovering from a dive 50 ft from the trees.

 

Oops. Sorry. Did I spoil you're punch line?

 

Did we talk you into a Cozy yet, Aaron?

[CBarber]

Gee I just had two really nice engineering types visit my Velocity project this past Saturday…….what happened, I thought I had y’all convinced.

 

Ok, I must concede the Velocity has a higher initial cost, but for me this higher cost gives me some, for lack of a better word, refinements that the Cozy does not have…. such as the gull doors (IMHO). More on that in a minute.

 

Of course a kit will cost more than plans/scratch built. That is all but a given. Final cost is still mostly up to the builder. You can, in all likelihood, get into the air cheaper in a Cozy. Obviously, kits cost more initially someone else is doing some of the work. This is a personal choice. I liked having some of the basics done already. If cost is your only factor, build an EZ…..for that matter, if I waited ‘till I had the money, I would never have a plane <g>.

 

As to time involved….again the builder is the key factor. Factory numbers mean little. A Velocity had a first flight last week after 2 years total building time. I have read others who are still working on their kits after 10 years. I hope to be closer to two. Building standards vary as well. I want a good airplane that I am happily and safely flying as opposed to the elusive “perfect plane” that is only a dream. Your mileage may vary.

 

When I visited the Velocity plant in Florida last year I also visited the folks at Aerocanard (I hope that is not blasphemy on this list). I did not feel as comfortable in the Aerocanard/Cozy design. I felt more like I was strapping on the plane (and sitting in a box) instead of getting into the plane. I know, that is a benefit to some of you. Which is kinda my point, much of this has to do with personal preference. Both planes share the pusher canard platform, but, they are not the same plane, they have significant differences. I feel this attempt to compare side by side is better suited for the uninitiated layman who just sees that both planes have a similar design as compared to a spamcan. To the untrained eye, the Piper and Bonanza may look like the same plane, but we know better. The two canards will suite different needs, tastes…..and wallets <g>. I don’t think either is “better”, they just offer a different flavor. I chose the Velocity….but I like and respect the Cozy and really like the ability to exchange ideas in a forum like this.

 

I agree with John, I too did not like the idea of a center stick and got the duel yoke option. I realized I almost always fly with my left hand and do other stuff with my right. Also, the yoke option allows me to mostly eliminated the center keel where the center control stick usually sits, thus giving me about 4 – 5 additional usable inches in the middle of the plane…..for a little more wiggle room. Other modifications and refinements include elimination of the protruding scoops in favor of very large NACA’s. (don’t tell Paul Lamar <g>….you rotarheads know why).

 

As to speed……honestly, I don’t know yet. I am planning on using a Mazda…hopefully the Renesis. Velocity Inc. states that I should be able to get 200 mph cruise with a 200 hp Lycosarus engine and my fixed gear. Yeah, it’s the factory and I know they are usually optimistic…..can we say marketing? However, the Renesis is rated at 240 or 250 hp (I have seen different numbers at different places) before you strip off the EPA stuff. It should be available by the time I need it. Since it would be great to cruise at 200 mph (duh) I can hope this will work. Who knows? I would think not all Cozy’s fly at the exact same speed…too many other variables involved….but “damnit Jim…..I a lawyer, not and engineer” We can only plan, implement, test and see.

 

As I mentioned, I like some of the things Velocity offers, such as the bucket seats and yes, the gull wing doors. I have heard the stories of doors popping open. I can only assume this is why my kit came with an additional locking safety latch to help eliminate/reduce this possibility. That being said and with all due respect to those that have gone before me, if a hatch popped off of a Cozy, you would not necessarily condemn the whole plane design, you would look for the cause and correct it (such as, as I have seen, a forward hinge top instead of a side opening top). My kit was originally an SUV model that only had one gull wing door. I added the second door for the easier access. I kept trying to imagine my 68 year old mother climbing over the center keel into the copilot seat. I really didn’t like that idea. I would have a similar concern with climbing into the Cozy (yeah, I have actually flown mom to relatives for visits across Texas). I think she and my girlfriend will like this access better.

 

I expect this to be the only plane I will ever own, so I wanted the plane that I think will suite my needs and desires as well as give me the most bang for the buck (hey, I have the standard Velocity, not the bigger and more expensive XL and I have no fast build options….I can think of plenty I could use that extra 40k on….yeah, like those damn student loans <g>)

 

So, Aaron…..did I help your decision???????

 

Let me know when you want to come back over and try to get that dang big nut off my 13b core again….I have applied more penetrant oil. Thanks again for the help.

 

FWIW.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

Houston

Velocity SE/FG with yoke option

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

[CBarber]

Aaron,

 

Obviously, I like my Velocity. But I would love to hear some of the insight you gain based on private meassages....not to undermine any confidance. But information you feel appropriate to share will be appreciated. I am assuming you got some feedback since your private inbox is full <g>.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[Aaron]

Chris, The search for knowledge is never over We were musing this weekend over what objections people have over the Velocity, I'm just trying to open things up into a nice healthy debate. I hope there are some completed Velocity's or Cozys at SWRFI- that's when I make my decision.

 

Exciting times

[John Slade]

In all fairness, Chris is right about the gull wing door issue. The door I refered to was not latched correctly. A Cozy was lost and all on board died in France a couple of years ago when the canopy popped open. The passenger stood up to try and close it, and his seat cushion went through the prop. Numerous suggestions have since been made to improve the Cozy canopy latch, but simply closing the canopy (or door) securely before take-off is essential in both designs.

 

Chris - if you're still having trouble with that nut - there was a discussion in the ACRE list last week about this very issue. A very powerful impact wrench seemed to be the best solution.

 

Anyway, I take Chris's point that much of this is personal preference. Velocity, EZ or Cozy, we're all canardians who understand the Wright way for an airplane to fly.

 

Whatever the type, there are a lot of Rotarians about these days. I liked the idea of testing the water with a couple of thousand $$ and getting into the commitment gradually with plans, rather than buying an expensive kit, and then finding out that I'd made a mistake. Making the parts is actually the easy bit. I went from receiving the plans to having the fuselage on wheels in 8 weeks flat (and for only $3k in outlay). My wings took me 6 weeks to build. It's the fine details in either approach that takes all the time. You can build a Cozy airframe in 18 months for $15k, then spend more than that on the panel.

[marbleturtle]

I liked the velocity too... but then I heard a rumor that they explode right after takeoff but somehow the gull wing doors always land in the Bermuda Triangle. Weird.

[CBarber]

Aaron,

 

Just spoke to a member of the Sponsoring Chapter of EAA for SWRFI and was told there is a Velocity based there that should be available for review. Unfortunatly, it is the older style that does not have the infamous gull doors. Maybe you got an idea about the doors during your visit to my project.

 

Also, due to a business closing, a Velocity project just came on the market today. Here is his message from the Velocity list.

 

.......:(The company I work for is going to close their

doors (I just found out last night) within 30 days. Believe me, I was

completely caught off guard and now I have no choice.

 

$46,000 for the project includes:

 

Micro-Encoder

Micro-Monitor

Navaid auto pilot

io360 with engine install kit (Wentworth engine still has 1 year warranty)

Finished seats (grey), red carpeting and headline

Fastbuild wings (by Dan Maher) and Fast build fuse

Many extras (whelen strobes -- full)

 

to much to list.

 

I just cried when I knew I had to sell her.

 

If you know someone, please let me know...

 

-Don

 

www.hammsaircraft.com .................

 

 

Maybe you could sell his engine and use the proceeds for the rotary His is one of the builders sites I have been monitoring for a while now. Really sucks, but maybe you or someone else can help his situation.

 

Just a thought.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[Aaron]

I think I'll start from scratch though, whichever one I go with.

[EracerFL]

I talked to a local Velocity builder. His was a earlier one and didn't have the gull wing doors. He had a problem with the canard going into a flutter where the tips started moving up and down about a foot. He was told he could either strip the canard and add some additonal glass on the skin layup or make a new canard with more glass skin layups. He made a new canard with some extra glass and that solved the problem. I really like the extra room in the Velocity and they look great.

[mplafleur]

How does usable load compare? I liked the room in the Velocity. My kids are in their teens now and will be in/out of college when I'm done and ready to fly. So, I'm looking at the 4-seat more to handle baggage for trips with my wife than for 4-people.

 

I'd always been looking at the Velocity or a Lancair, but I've come to realize that if I want to fly my own plane, I need to make it economical. I think it's the cozy for me. Spend and build when I'm ready. No big up-front cost. Once I get my garage built, I can finally start building my plane!

[John Slade]

Once I get my garage built, I can finally start building my plane!

If I had a gallon of fuel for every time I heard that I could fly around the world and back

Skimp on the garage - just get it done. The sooner you start the cozy, the sooner you'll be done.

 

I forget the usable figure for the Velo - I think it has to be less given a heavier, less aerodynamic bird with the same engine. For the Cozy it's theoretically 1000lbs. I say theoretically because most people put in various gizmos that take the empty weight higher than the plans. I believe most Cozy IVs weigh in at around 1250 - 1350. As manufacturer it's up to you to set the max gross.

 

> So, I'm looking at the 4-seat more to handle baggage for trips with my wife than for 4-people.

 

No problem with baggage except that you might have to swap fuel for bags if she gets carried away. Wayne Hicks has a great picture on his site showing all the baggage he and Marc took to Sun & Fun in Marcs Cozy. And I though MY wife overpacked!

 

Marc - what are you're gross and usable load figers?

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by John Slade .....I believe most Cozy IVs weigh in at around 1250 - 1350. As manufacturer it's up to you to set the max gross.

My empty weight is 1155 lbs. From what I remember seeing, most are between 1100 lb. and 1200 lb. - anything more than that is because someone is building a show plane, or is just really sloppy.

 

So, I'm looking at the 4-seat more to handle baggage for trips with my wife than for 4-people.

That's mostly what I'll be using it for as well, and it holds a LOT of stuff in the back.

 

No problem with baggage except that you might have to swap fuel for bags if she gets carried away.

Can't happen. Baggage is VERY light in comparison with people. There's no way I could get 400 lb. of luggage into the rear seats.

 

Wayne Hicks has a great picture on his site showing all the baggage he and Marc took to Sun & Fun in Marcs Cozy. And I though MY wife overpacked!

Yeah, and if all that stuff weighed 120 lb., it was a lot.

 

Marc - what are you're gross and usable load figers?

I put max. gross at 2155 lbs. - 1000 lb. over my original empty weight of 1155 lb. After I add wheel pants, electrical nose lift, etc., the weight will rise about 20 lb., but it'll drop 10 lb. when I replace the Concorde battery with an Odyssey battery.

 

With full fuel (58 gal. in my plane), or about 350 lb, I've got 650 lb. of payload. Subtract my 160 lb, and there's 490 lb. of people and stuff I can take for a 5 hour flight, with IFR reserves.

[mplafleur]

Well, It's not like the garage is a dream. The architech is finished with the addition plans and we are refinancing the house now for funds. There really is no place to start right now.

 

I really hadn't given the cozy any thought before. I mean 700 hrs vs 3000 hrs, kit vs building everything, $$$ vs $. But I've come to realize that for all the waiting, I could have had something substantial by now.

[dust]

Well, if you check into the 700 hours from real builders, you will find many, many more spent. If you check into serious cozy builders, you will find plenty that have done it in less than 2000 hrs

 

 

Enjoy the build

[LargePrime]

Accessability is a big advantange for the cozy IMHO.

 

When i first saw the cozy's flip top next to the gull wing doors, i felt the cozy lost points in this area. After seeing people load up to take off a few times that changed.

 

You ever own a 2 door 4 seater car, and take people places. Theres this hassle getting in and out of the car. The cozy is just a lot easier to load and unload and get in and out of.

 

Just from an accessability point of view, I think the flip top is a plus on the cozy. Also lighter, simpler, and, i belive, safer than gull wings.

[Paul Phillips]

How Are you all doing, I also would like to build a velolicty but an rg can someone maybe tell me about this stall into trees someone had

[CBarber]

Paul,

 

Wish I could. I have not heard about it yet. In theory, it should not have been a "stall", but "pitch buked" into the trees would confuse many). I will keep my eyes open on the "Reflector" (the Velocity builder email list). Was this tree incident recent??

 

Also, feel free to contact me if you should have additional Velocity questions. My office number (don't be afraid if I answer "law office") is 281-464-5297 and/or, if you are in Houston, stop by and visit the project. It is actually looks more like a plane now than a boat.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[rhofacker]

The debate on Cozy Vs Velocity will no doubt go on for ever

 

There have been a number if threads about it on this forum and in the e-mails flying around.

 

To me the bottom line is: Velocity: larger, roomier (4 real people), easier ingress/egress and kit built (larger initial outlay of $$$). If you ever get the chance to try out the Velocity gullwing doors, you'll be spoiled for life. It really is a major comfort factor. No climbing under or crawling over anything. It beats the snot out of anything else out there: commercial built or homebuilt for a "cross country" type airplane.

 

Cozy: smaller (2+2) seating...(really a nice 2 place with lots of baggage room)

possibly faster, possibly "better" ("better" being a very relative term: quicker? lighter?) handling. The center stick is a non issue to me. I've flown several older homebuilts with center sticks - no problem. I also fly a '51 Bonanza with the "throw over yoke - no problem, no sweat.

 

I chose Cozy (plans are on order) because it is plans built and therefore I can lay out the money in smaller chunks (there are other ways to deal with the cash flow issues: a loan for example while interest rates are low...) and I can deal with the other preferential short comings (mine will have doors of some sort - no climbing over the canopy rail for me even if it costs me payload. Even if it's not a "Cozy" any more). After lots of discussions with the wife, lots of spread sheets trying to prioritize and rate features, lots of soul searching the "plans built" was the real deciding factor.

 

If you want a true 4 place or if you don't want to "deal" with converting "plans" into an airplane go with the Velocity. If you want to make any preferential changes (like a door on the cozy) then plans built is the only way to go...

[CBarber]

Ron,

 

Congrats on ordering your plans. I am tickled pink. I hope you will invite me over to check it out once you get started. You are welcome to come over and check out my project anytime....even if it is a Velo .

 

You know, we all feel sorry for ya having to suffer in your Bonaza with that throw over yoke . Remember, the Velo has a yoke option....which is what I have, so more room in the center and you can fly left handed from the left seat).

 

Also, FYI, EAA Chapter 12 finally voted to move its monthly meeting to Ellington. We meet the second Wednesday of the month at 7:30 pm at Southwest Services FBO second floor conferance room. However, this month we are suppossed to meet at the Collins Foundation for a tour of the various planes they have (B-25 etc). I want to personaly invite you to come on out (fly in from Polly Ranch would be REALLY kewl). I was the PITA instigator of the move from Houston Southwest to Ellington, so every new member will help reduce the possibility of egg on my face <g>. Now that you are a builder it should be a nice fit.

 

Ellington has a number of builders. I met a new Chapter 12 member yesterday who called me and invited me over to check out his new "ViperJet" kit. Wow! 450 kts and it is a kit. He may even offer part of his new "big" hanger for EAA use (of course, you have a hanger behind your house, but good for the chapter anyway)

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[Jon Matcho]

Ron, I second Chris' congratulations. Hoo rah!!!

 

I have been giving serious thought to door concepts, and am going to decide after final assembly of my "tub". Unless, of course, you have a better idea...

[rhofacker]

Well it's official: I'got plans serial number 1299

[rhofacker]

Ron,

 

Congrats on ordering your plans. I am tickled pink. I hope you will invite me over to check it out once you get started. You are welcome to come over and check out my project anytime....even if it is a Velo .

 

You know, we all feel sorry for ya having to suffer in your Bonaza with that throw over yoke . Remember, the Velo has a yoke option....which is what I have, so more room in the center and you can fly left handed from the left seat).

 

Also, FYI, EAA Chapter 12 finally voted to move its monthly meeting to Ellington. We meet the second Wednesday of the month at 7:30 pm at Southwest Services FBO second floor conferance room. However, this month we are suppossed to meet at the Collins Foundation for a tour of the various planes they have (B-25 etc). I want to personaly invite you to come on out (fly in from Polly Ranch would be REALLY kewl). I was the PITA instigator of the move from Houston Southwest to Ellington, so every new member will help reduce the possibility of egg on my face <g>. Now that you are a builder it should be a nice fit.

 

Ellington has a number of builders. I met a new Chapter 12 member yesterday who called me and invited me over to check out his new "ViperJet" kit. Wow! 450 kts and it is a kit. He may even offer part of his new "big" hanger for EAA use (of course, you have a hanger behind your house, but good for the chapter anyway)

 

All the best,

 

Chris

Way cool! We'll try to make it to the chapter meetings. I'm very intrested in your Velocity. As I said it has a LOT going for it and a lot of things I may copy (like the door.. ). I'm really intrested in your Wankle rotary engine. It's a long way done the road but I'm really thinking of going that way myself unless something better pops up in the next few years.

 

...actually the throw over yoke has some very real benifits: it gives you a lot more room for the navigator. Which ever seat he/she might be in... :

and a lot better visibility of the panel space often obscured by the second yoke.

 

I wonder if I could get a Viper in and out of Polly Ranch if I won the lottery...